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  1. Seiryoku Zenyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2009 12:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, Brazilian JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Does anyone have written copy of Pedro's flow diagram they would be willing to share?
  2. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2009 12:55pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Two thoughts from class:

    1) The high collar grip can force your opponent into breaking posture, and is good both offensively and defensively. I see it highly valued by many.
    The problem with a high collar grip is that it's somewhat awkward to work with in term of pulling because your opponents head is in the way. It tends to be favored by taller guys because it's easier for them to get it and work with it. If you're reaching up (like I am as a smaller guy) it's not that great of a grip.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post

    2) While still not a hierarchy, consider the loose gi on the back, just above the belt, off to one side. It can nullify the high collar grip, but is only valuable offensively, since it is not defensive.
    You're essentially talking about an underhook grip. It is a good defensive grip in that your opponent needs to heavily unbalance you to attack with a forward throw (uchi-mata, harai, etc) or else you can pretty much instantly counter them with a tani-o-toshi or ura-nage depending on your preference. It also renders o-uchi ineffective since unless he really gets you moving you can counter it very effectively from this grip.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    In a way, I see the hierarchy of gi grips being more of a flow diagram. If he takes a high collar, I need to keep posture, break the grip, or duck under, or take the behind the back, or XYZ. If he takes the sleeve end, I need to QRS.

    I think this is how Pedro's DVD is structured, no?
    This is a better way of looking at it but still kind of not quite right. For example the traditional grip, what is your move from there? Some may fight for a more specific grip, some may be happy to stay. It all depends on what your personal end point is going to be which is different for everyone.
  3. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 2:54am


     Style: Baboo Baby

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's gotta be some grips that are better than others. For instance on the ground from guard it's better to grab across their centre line (your right hand grabbing their right lapel, or lef/left), rather than just grabbing straight (right hand grabbing their left lapel, etc). That's gotta at least be a half-mount/full mount analogue.
  4. tetsuo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 7:58am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One first point is that in Judo some grips are considered as illegals: mostly grips where both hands are on the same side of the opponent. More exactly they cannot be maintained more than 5 seconds, but referree can enforce it very roughly depending on the country.

    I have no idea is such grips are more efficient that the legal ones (indeed I think they are very efficient as they are in sambo but I am not a judo expert). Maybe someone else?

    One second point is a question to high level judoka. In the classical kumi-kata (lapel-sleeve for both competitors), what is the difference between inside and outside control? I mean, for example, is it better to have inside control with your lapel-grapping, to try to open the opponent's arm, or is it vetter to have outside control ?
  5. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 9:04am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by migo View Post
    There's gotta be some grips that are better than others. For instance on the ground from guard it's better to grab across their centre line (your right hand grabbing their right lapel, or lef/left), rather than just grabbing straight (right hand grabbing their left lapel, etc). That's gotta at least be a half-mount/full mount analogue.

    There sort of are but it's so individualized that it would be hard to give a general ranking. Take the overhand grip for example. It's a strong preferred grip, right? Sometimes in randori I'll be feeling aggressive and tug my opponent down and slap it on. Then I'll realize I have absolutely NO throws I like to do from there because my little stump legs don't really work for uchi-mata or harai from the position. So while an overhand grip is a great, strong grip, it's pretty much completely useless to me unless I just want to inconveniance my opponent with it.

    As for the cross-gripping analogy in judo tachi-waza you don't generally hold a cross-grip, you just cross-grip to transition to a stronger normal side grip or to imbalance your opponent for an attack.
  6. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 9:12am


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsuo View Post
    One first point is that in Judo some grips are considered as illegals: mostly grips where both hands are on the same side of the opponent. More exactly they cannot be maintained more than 5 seconds, but referree can enforce it very roughly depending on the country.

    I have no idea is such grips are more efficient that the legal ones (indeed I think they are very efficient as they are in sambo but I am not a judo expert). Maybe someone else?
    The five-second, two on one grips are strong grips if you have throws that utilize them. They should be used transitionally and as soon as you achieve them you should be attacking to avoid being penalized. They are efficient in that they usually put your opponent in an awkward position so it's more difficult for them to counter when you attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsuo View Post
    One second point is a question to high level judoka. In the classical kumi-kata (lapel-sleeve for both competitors), what is the difference between inside and outside control? I mean, for example, is it better to have inside control with your lapel-grapping, to try to open the opponent's arm, or is it vetter to have outside control ?
    I've never really heard the terms inside and outside control being used for a lapel grip. By the nature of that grip you really have no control over your opponents arm on that side so once you've taken the grip he can let go and re-grip however he wants. If you want to control that arm you have to use an under or over hook and then you're out of the traditional grip. You'll only have your preferred inside or outside control for the time until he re-grips as he wants.
  7. tetsuo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 9:21am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum View Post
    The five-second, two on one grips are strong grips if you have throws that utilize them. They should be used transitionally and as soon as you achieve them you should be attacking to avoid being penalized. They are efficient in that they usually put your opponent in an awkward position so it's more difficult for them to counter when you attack.
    So in your opinion, is there any reason to use, in a BJJ context, these judo-illegal grips not only 5 secs max before throw, but for an extended period of time? Will this kind of grip be "superior" to legal judo grips?

    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum View Post
    I've never really heard the terms inside and outside control being used for a lapel grip. By the nature of that grip you really have no control over your opponents arm on that side so once you've taken the grip he can let go and re-grip however he wants. If you want to control that arm you have to use an under or over hook and then you're out of the traditional grip. You'll only have your preferred inside or outside control for the time until he re-grips as he wants.
    Utterly right. These terms mean something only when one is a stiff-arm bully, fighting another one (which appear to be the case a lot of times during randori at my old judo school).
  8. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 5:23pm


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsuo View Post
    So in your opinion, is there any reason to use, in a BJJ context, these judo-illegal grips not only 5 secs max before throw, but for an extended period of time? Will this kind of grip be "superior" to legal judo grips?
    The only real advantage would be you could really wait until the perfect opportunity to attack. The down side is that most of these grips are very limited in what you can do with them. In a BJJ context you're most likely looking to get to the ground so it'll likely foil any of your opponent's takedown ability since they won't be used to the odd grips.

    If you use underhooks at all, use the belt grip. It's a great handle and really lets you control your opponent and whip them around if you have to. I like a two on one sleeve and overhook grip to set up a obi-tori-gaeshi, single leg pick or tsumi-gaeshi attacks. The single leg from this grip would probably be the best for BJJ since you land in an advantageous ground position (side control) and it's low risk since you're not going to end up on your back with the opponent on top of you. The obi-tori is nice and if done correctly you can roll up into mount but it's hard to learn and do properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsuo View Post

    Utterly right. These terms mean something only when one is a stiff-arm bully, fighting another one (which appear to be the case a lot of times during randori at my old judo school).
    Yeah I can see that now. In that context you probably want your lapel arm inside if you're going to use a leg technique or ippon-seoi and outside for pretty much everything else. I'd focus on a breaking down the stiff arm and moving my opponent there though, much easier and more effective.
  9. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 11:26pm


     Style: Baboo Baby

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So there are certain situations in which certain grips are preferable, and others in which it's preference?
  10. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2009 12:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The most all round useful grip in Judo is the sleeve and lapel grip-the standard grip for learning Judo. It affords the most flexibility in action, offense and defense.

    If you watch Jimmy Pedro do Judo, and I've watched him a lot over the years, live, in competition, he throws mostly from a sleeve and lapel grip. How he gets that grip, and keeps it, and uses it to dominate an opponent, (or other grips) is what his DVD is about.

    There is no formal hierarchy of grips in Judo that I know of. Any grip can be neutralized or turned against an opponent by a combination of tai sabaki, posture, and counter gripping. And that is a complex topic to say the least.

    We need to differentiate between high level Judo competition, where the sort of grip fighting skill that Jimmy Pedro and others teach/do is an absolute necessity, to just learning Judo and competing in normal events.

    Here are a couple of basic principles of gripping.

    1. Your lapel hand should be level or slightly lower than your shoulder.
    2. Grip the sleeve hand between or on the elbow and the sleeve opening. Get a "double grip", in other words, take the slack out of the gi.
    3.) Keep both your elbows pointing at the floor as much as possible.
    4.) Don't clamp your thumb down in either grip, especially the lapel grip, as that limits your ability to turn your body.

    After that, it gets much more complicated because of the permutations of posture and movement between two people.

    Regards,

    Ben
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