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  1. #21

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreed Ronin. The guys who start under this approach gain skills that I didn't start to acquire till after I got my shodan. They are better able to adapt, move, and counter, without stalling and wondering what to do next.

    Randori is a regualr part of our weekly classes as well, even for relatively new folks.

    What we do is heavily influenced by Kurowaiwo Sensei, a former boxer who melded his boxing into his aikido(and whose name I most likely spelled wrong) and Nishio Sensei, a very excellent teacher. Ellis studied with them quite a bit while he was in Japan.
    Last edited by John A Butz; 1/21/2004 8:43am at .

  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And not the kind of randori that involves overly telegraphed multiple attacks, followed by ki-generated throws that send ukes flying across the room.

  3. #23

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was exposed to those OVERLY telegraphed attacks with a shuto and they drove me crazy !!!
    I just wanted to rip the arm off and swing it around and hit the guy on the head with it !!!

    I think that NOT teaching how to apply the technique in a practical way from the beginning is VERY wrong.

  4. #24

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Our dojocho is also highly ranked in Isshin-ryu karate, so he's a bit of a stickler for making sure people know how to strike correctly and with intention.

  5. #25
    Beatdown Richie's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Budd & John: your description sounds very good, I think you're practicing aikido the way it should be.
    A couple of minor points:
    - why bother with shomen and yokumen at all? Minimal telegraphing is nice, but I've never seen anyone outside of an aikido dojo attack with an overhead chop. I'd focus on attacks that people actually use (jab, cross, hook...)
    - how about the clinch? Do you do randori with judo people and wrestlers who are knowledgeable about gripping, control and off-balancing? Traditional aikido has a whole bunch of techniques against wrist grabs and elbow grabs and lapel grabs, and none of them seem to work against capable opponents (at least for me).
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)

  6. #26
    Beatdown Richie's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    > I have only 1 year with Kimeada Sensei in Toronto, but it was a very nice learning experience.
    I took a seminar from Kimeda, he's a tough dude and knows a lot, but he also taught quite a bit of stuff of questionable use
    (a knife kata in kneeling position? pleeeease...)

    > We drilled a technique till it could be done, effectively off EVERY attack.
    > My problem with that is it was left for the higher belts,
    > I think it shouldbe done from the beginning.
    Amen. The problem is, Yoshinkan teaching doctrine says that newbies have to practice completely unrealistic canned techniques step by step for years. Complete BS.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)

  7. #27

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've found through sparring that yokomenuchi and shomenuchi can be quite effective -- especially when they have the same delivery system and set-up, i.e. you have your lead hand up by your forehead (imagine how your hand might be positioned at the completion of an outside block), instead of being extended back behind your ear (yokomen) or held straight up above your head (shomen). From this position, you can deliver either strike AND it's also a much more faithful representation of how an empty hand strike inspired by a sword cut might look.

    I've not found either to be great finishing strikes, but they have worked quite well to set up other things (depending on the reaction you get from the strike).

    We don't have any thing from the clinch in our formal curriculum as of yet, it may or may not be included at some point. But as I posted before, I run drills regarding the clinch during open mat time and (being an ex-wrestler and judo guy) then do randori to get folks used to using techniques in that environment.

  8. #28

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The reasoning behind shomen and yokomen, as far as I understand it, is that we are still practicing aikido, and we don't want to throw it all away just 'cause. We will be using a variety of other strikes as we train, including jabs, crosses and hooks. But we also use the shomen and yokomen because, frnakly, they are training tools. I am not adovctaing fighting with them, but they help students understand the line we are workign on. That knowledge can and is then applied to other types of attack.

    As for the clinch, some of us are working on that. In March, we will get the last elements of the curriculum, which may include the clinch, based on my understanding of it. The movements, especialy the up and down spirals, that we practice, have translated quite well into my personal pummeling practice(say THAT ten times fast) with Budd. More practice is needed, as he is better then me, but instead of learning a new thing I am learning how to apply an existing thing to a new situation.

  9. #29

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JB, I'll show you some good ways to use yokomen and shomen in standup sparring -- especially as a set-up to a throw or takedown.

  10. #30

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You could also look at was been done in yoseikan budo, as Mochizuki sensei has blended Aikido, karate and judo quite well. ( yes I know i'm bias )

    Were I practice we put on our protection and do free randori at the end of each class. I can say that when I first started and after almost 10 years of aikido I couldn't even see real oportunities for applying what I had learned in those sparing sessions. Having a fully resisting uke throwing his best shots (hand and feet) at you and also able to close the distance to trhow you to the ground is a revealing experience ;-)

    now after 6 months my aiki (blending) skills are becoming usefull but only because I now train this way, I'm now a firm believer that the training method is a lot more important than the style you train it.

    I just wish I had found Bullshido.net sooner......
    Martial Arts is like sex, if you over complicate it with exotic sounding names, theories and principles, you end up fucking yourself in the ass. -Ronin69

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