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  1. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 6:16am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't really understand the spiral stuff. Whatever it is, I think it is good to prove that it really works to yourself, which can't be done without, everyone repeat, "fully resisting opponents".

    How is your sparring, besides the lower level of contact? Do you spar with the actual techniques?

    The only akido experience I ever had was negative, so I am pretty skeptical whenever someone mentions it.
  2. John A Butz is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 7:43am

    supporting member
     Style: Various JMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pojac, no, it is not coreagraphed. There aren't specific counters, there are movements. You don't try to do "a particluar technique" but rather whatever technique becomes availible, much like Onecardshot described. The method you are describing is how I used to pracitce, Tab A to slot B, Tab C to slot D. But when someone throws an attack that you were not expecting, you get pasted. With this approach, regardless of attack thrown, you defend, redirect, and when a technique becomes avilible, you take it. If it fails, you continue to defend, and look for a counter.(This all happens relatively quickly, which may change as we refine the curriculum and get better) I didn't mean to imply that we had specific counters, but rather that it's all counterable, ie no super undefeatable techniques, and no training yourself to stop after a single technique has been attempted, in case the first one fails. Does that make sense?

    Be Like water,

    1)we have a single kick at this time, a front kick. This may change as time goes on.

    2)As an art, aikido is about minimal violence. It is possible to KO someone with elbows etc, but the philosphy behind the art involves attempting the peaceful reconciliation of violence...long and short of it is, we train primarily for the lock/throw, with the understanding that the joint could also be broken. We are not ignorant of the ability to use strikes to do damage, and we do practice it.

    3)Aikido may or may not have been watered down, it depends on how you trian. However, all aikido, even ours, doesw involve two people bringing things to the technique. The difference, for us, is that we want the other person to try to hit us, in a realistic way, forcing us to employ good technique, not simply throw a long off balance attack and let us to them as we will. Internal splits have lead to Tomiki and Yoshinakna aikido, which could be said to be more comabtive and effective then the original...it all depends on how you train the stuff.

    Mr McFu,

    The spiral stuff is simply lines in space, that translate in our system to methods of executing strikes. We have worked against increasing amounts of resistance(as this is a new method for us. We practiced a more common, unrealistic, highly coreagraphed style prior to meeting Ellis) and the techniques do work. We do spar with the techniques, and the movements patterns. My regular partners and I are going to up the level of contatc and resistance, and try the stuff with gear on and no designated attacker/defender, all that. I believe int he "full resistance, live training" method, and this approach does lead to it.
    Last edited by John A Butz; 1/21/2004 7:46am at .
  3. MrMcFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 7:48am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh well then I applaud you taking the initiative on this. Many MA students just bend over and accept what is taught.
  4. John A Butz is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 7:53am

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     Style: Various JMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thats exactly why, in my opinion, aikido has become somewhat of a joke. Everyone who practices it wants to be a wise old master, but no one wants to spend the sweat, time and blood to become a competent fighter. Without the ability to perform your aikido under stress and resistance whilst dealing with actual attacks, it is so much meaningless movements in the air.
  5. Ippatsu182 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 8:19am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems like a watered down version of aikido (i.e. without the ukemi (rolls) and the tenkan/ura (turning) movements). No offense intended, but I think aikido techniques are better for supplementing other arts like jujutsu, karate, wrestling, etc. rather than being used as the base of an art.

    By the way, do you get a chance to apply the learned techniques to unwilling ukes? I think that doing that is the only real way to fully understand the techniques and apply them. Anyway, thanks for sharing that information with us. I know it must have taken a long time to write.
    Last edited by Ippatsu182; 1/21/2004 8:26am at .
  6. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 8:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: Atemi- It hits all by itself

    Originally posted by John A Butz
    Atemit must be able to be used effectively at any point in a technique. The reason uke moves is because if he doesn't, he knows he will get hit. He moves to protect himself.

    All of our techniques have many, many oppurtonities for atemi. We use these oppurtonities to move into techniques, cover mistakes, counter, and in general to facilitate technique.

    We are not trying to land knockout punches, nor do we ascribe to the eyegouge/tiger strike school of thought.

    Our most common atemi are a backfist, a back forearm strike, an uppercut, an elbow strike, and a thrust/jab.

    We believe that atmei is used to fix uke in place, whilst nage moves around him to effect the control and throw. Alot of aikido people think the other way, using pain to make uke move around nage to effect the throw. We feel that it unrealistic. OUr aikido acutally doesn't hurt very much, apart from getting hit and pins, becasue we don't try to move uke through pain. We also learn several counters to pain based methods of aikido techniques, for our safety when practicing with unknown aikido/jujutsu people.

    Alos, we learn how to throw effective attacks, including jabs, and we throw our shoman/yokomen strieks with intent and minimal telegraphing. We only have one kick, a front push kick, usually used of the lead leg.

    Onward...
    In the yoshinkan they teach the "metsubishi" (sp?), a back knuckle like strike to between the eyes, do you guys do that too?
  7. John A Butz is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 8:29am

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     Style: Various JMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ippatsu- um, we have ukemi that is safer then the ukemi of aikido and lends it self to less collusion between uke and nage, and we have tenkan(it's also called tai-no-henko when done as an excersise, tenkan when used in techniques). No offense taken re: your opinion on our techniques. We didn't water it down so much as strip out what we felt was unnecessary.
    Last edited by John A Butz; 1/21/2004 8:32am at .
  8. Budd is offline

    Professor of Chaos

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 8:30am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have much to add at this point, folks, save to say that in addition to our aikido curriculum that we're developing, we also have informal open mat times (usually at least a couple of times a week) that act a bit like I imagine some throwdowns do here. For instance, my primary background is that of a grappler (different types of wrestling and judo) and I also have a brown belt in a generic karate system. We have guys that have specialized in striking based arts. So basically, we can get together and work on stuff to improve our skills outside of what is happening in our formal aiki classes as well. A specific example would be tonight, where we'll be having an open mat for a couple hours or so and several of us wrestling exponents will be getting together and doing some rolling. We're also coming up with some drills for non-wrestlers to teach some of the basic stuff like shooting, sprawling, pummeling and working from the clinch. It helps keep us wrestling guys sharper and helps the non-wrestlers/judoka round out their overall game.
  9. John A Butz is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 8:30am

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     Style: Various JMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah Ronin, we do that.
  10. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2004 8:37am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent.
    I have only 1 year with Kimeada Sensei in Toronto, but it was a very nice learning experience.
    Due to my BB in judo I was allowed to train with the BB.
    Kimeada enforced the ability to use ANY technique against EVERY attack, and drills were done for that purpose ( something he had in common with my first Judo instructor).
    We drilled a technique till it could be done, effectively off EVERY attack.
    My problem with that is it was left for the higher belts, I think it shouldbe done from the beginning.
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