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  1. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 7:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoninPimp View Post
    All I was trying to say was that Oly lifts at high reps aren't anymore dangerous than the sports you would be using them to train for.
    Given that this is a martial arts forum, what would it imply if this wasn't true?

    Crossfit isn't any more dangerous than doing wind sprints across the freeway.
    It also isn't any more evil than :hitlerdan.
    Neither of those statements mean much.

    Compare it to alternate ways of achieving the same goals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 8:36pm

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    I <3 U Russ
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  3. BaronVonDingDong is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 9:42pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Crossfit isn't any more dangerous than doing wind sprints across the freeway.
    It also isn't any more evil than :hitlerdan.
    Neither of those statements mean much.

    Compare it to alternate ways of achieving the same goals.

    Russ, you always have such good advice and knowledge, but this is a little too eldritch.

    Are you simply saying that there are safer (less injurious) ways to achieve the same conditioning goals, or am I missing something?
  4. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 9:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronVonDingDong View Post
    Are you simply saying that there are safer (less injurious) ways to achieve the same conditioning goals, or am I missing something?
    Not exactly, although I suspect that's true. What I'm saying is this: to meaningfully assess the risk:reward ratio of a training technique, compare it to other training techniques that are designed to provide comparable rewards.

    In the case of high-repetition Olympic lifts with a goal of improved metabolic conditioning, competition would include things like stair climbing, sled pulling, skipping, tire flipping, medicine ball throwing, box jumps, Tabatas (actual Tabata protocol, not "eight sets with short rest"), etc.

    Comparing CrossFit to martial arts is disingenuous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  5. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 10:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Not exactly, although I suspect that's true. What I'm saying is this: to meaningfully assess the risk:reward ratio of a training technique, compare it to other training techniques that are designed to provide comparable rewards.

    In the case of high-repetition Olympic lifts with a goal of improved metabolic conditioning, competition would include things like stair climbing, sled pulling, skipping, tire flipping, medicine ball throwing, box jumps, Tabatas (actual Tabata protocol, not "eight sets with short rest"), etc.

    Comparing CrossFit to martial arts is disingenuous.
    two of my guys just returned from a 10 day training session at Spartak-the former Soviet Union summer training facility/now in the Ukraine.

    They did very intensive training, too much running, Soccer, lots of Olympic lifting in their weight routines, ridiculous Ruskie-kettlebell stuff like juggling and finger lifts of 1&1/2 pood kbs, way too much rope-climbing and so forth. They came back bruised and beaten but in a week or two of recovery and maintainence, they's be peak for any competition.

    I really don't get the "risk" thing here. There are throws we do that, if a student hasn't had at least a year of tumbling and breakfalls and the whole package, I really don't want them trying these throws or being thrown in this way.

    For instance:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zs_q8f_Q6M
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
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  6. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 10:36pm

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    Again, to compare your conditioning program to your skill training doesn't really make sense. Your conditioning program is designed to improve your skills, and as such it serves you little benefit to intentionally train in a manner that is injurious, especially when there are equal or even greater methods available that are less injurious, when the result is that you are unable to train your skills as a result of your conditioning training.
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  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 10:59pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by theotherserge View Post
    I really don't get the "risk" thing here. There are throws we do that, if a student hasn't had at least a year of tumbling and breakfalls and the whole package, I really don't want them trying these throws or being thrown in this way.
    Are you sure you don't "get" the risk thing? I mean, you went on to express it. If you grab a rookie who hasn't had that tumbling/breakfall experience and start throwing him in that manner, what's likely to happen?

    Injury. They'll be required to discontinue their training, at least in that particular form.

    So what do you do instead? You train them in a different manner that's more likely to be sustainable.

    ---

    The bottom line is that if you take more risk than is required to achieve a particular* reward, you're training sub-optimally - and I'd say stupidly.

    While performing an activity near/at/through exhaustion, the odds of a fatigue-induced error increase dramatically with the coordination required to perform said activity. Compare a round of Tabata on a stationary cycle vs. a round of Tabata on a unicycle.

    You're more likely to fail with (fall off) the unicycle than the stationary cycle, and as an added bonus, the consequences of the failure will be significantly more severe (if you're at 170% VO2max on the unicycle, you're really ripping along). Two different avenues to increased risk.
    Last edited by TheRuss; 5/29/2009 11:07pm at . Reason: * I said "certain" here, but that has an unintended meaning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  8. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2009 12:33am

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

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    Understood^ but isn't there a benefit to "more challenging" exercises? The muscle groups that make up a pick-up throw can be broken down into separate elements: deadlift, curls, squat, box-jump. But a throw is a grouping of actions, I don't have the background to properly explicate all of this, and I respectfully yield to the knowledge that you both possess.

    All I have gleaned from my experiences is the more coordination in your exercises leads to more coordination in your martial arts. I can't see how a chambered, regulated exercise like a deadlift would improve a throw in randori or otherwise. With a clean&jerk I can see the timing, balance and the "risk" factor paying off.

    Forgive me if I read too much into your points, I'm not trying to be argumentative as this is definitely not my area of know-how.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
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  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2009 1:03am

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    Quote Originally Posted by theotherserge View Post
    isn't there a benefit to "more challenging" exercises?
    Sometimes, not always. I can make a squat more challenging by increasing the weight or range of motion, or I can make a squat more challenging by greasing my shoes and taping razor blades to the bar.

    Put another way, it's possible to work hard and get nowhere - or, thanks to injury, even go backwards. Someone who trains for the sake of improvement (rather than the sake of training) doesn't bring a measuring cup to the gym to measure their sweat - they judge their training by outcomes.

    If someone's goal is to improve their Crossfit "score", then the ability to perform repeated Olympic lifts while fatigued will (apparently) be something they'll want to cultivate, despite the risk. People who are looking for more general benefits may opt for activities that allow development of Olympic lifts and conditioning independently to improve separately in both.

    Quote Originally Posted by theotherserge View Post
    The muscle groups that make up a pick-up throw can be broken down into separate elements: deadlift, curls, squat, box-jump. But a throw is a grouping of actions, I don't have the background to properly explicate all of this, and I respectfully yield to the knowledge that you both possess.

    All I have gleaned from my experiences is the more coordination in your exercises leads to more coordination in your martial arts. I can't see how a chambered, regulated exercise like a deadlift would improve a throw in randori or otherwise. With a clean&jerk I can see the timing, balance and the "risk" factor paying off.

    Forgive me if I read too much into your points, I'm not trying to be argumentative as this is definitely not my area of know-how.
    I'm not arguing against Olympic lifts or derivatives in general - if you can do them properly, they're an asset. I'm arguing against:
    -doing them while fatigued to the point where form may be compromised (including at the end of a long set), or
    -doing them with an inadequate load-velocity combination to develop power or strength

    I will say that if I were trying to apply gym-built strength to improve grappling performance (and didn't have a partner to toss around for hours on end), my ideal setup would probably be a big sandbag to grab, drag, lift, carry, throw around and generally manhandle. Synergies should be obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  10. Liffguard is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2009 7:45am

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    Thank you Russ for explaining all the conclusions I came to about Crossfit but was unable to adequately articulate.
    Dedicated to legs and the disrespecting thereof.
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