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  1. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hornyhobo View Post
    Isn't part of having proper technique NOT punching someone's skull? Are you saying proper technique and strength are useless with out "bone-conditioning"?
    Proper technique may mean hitting someone on the jaw, but sometimes the target moves and prevents you from hitting that perfect spot. So you will want to train for the worst case scenario, and hope for the best.

    And no, I'm not saying that. Nothing is useless. That is like saying it is better to do one push up a day than zero push ups a day. It is still useful, but if you are going to train, do it right.
  2. maxthegeek1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:49pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    karate people have no idea how to condition their bodies or their hands correctly.

    many karateka die from stomach and heart issues as those meridians are messed up with insane external only conditioning.

    I have baby soft hands and can twiddle my digits with ease.

    I can also break concrete and heads.

    Go figure who has a better conditioning program.
    Ok I feel like this whole post is BS. First of all, you haven't established that karateka die more often from stomach and heart issues, which is a statement that can't really be established from anecdotal evidence, unless you're saying you know a **** load of kareteka who do this kind of conditioning, and that they've died disproportionately from heart and stomach problems, which are fairly common.

    Second, I don't believe in meridians, I'm pretty sure most people on this forum don't either, and it would take a lot of convincing to get me to.

    Third, the idea that there is a bone conditioning program that both strengthens ones bones and ligaments but isn't detrimental to dexterity seems flawed to me. If our body was capable of producing bone structure simply through conditioning that was superior in every respect, it seems to me that humanity would have simply evolved to have that bone structure permanently. The reason our bone structure is capable of changing, is that evolution has given us the tools to adapt to our environment. If there was one bone structure that was superior in every environment, then evolution would not have granted us that ability to adapt.
    Last edited by maxthegeek1; 5/20/2009 7:52pm at .
  3. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:54pm


     Style: American Kenpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Okay.

    You do not train hitting concrete.

    You train using a bag full of steel shot.

    You also train with buckets full of beans and steel shot for the fingers.

    breaking is to show your structure and application of power is working in tandem.

    So my question for you is do you train your claws with accesory training?

    if you do not how do you expect to really use them?

    and be careful you are starting to sound like Bruce Downey with all these references to using claws without training them.
    I don't know who Bruce Downey is, so, whatever.

    Maybe a claw is done differently in your martial art than mine. I don't hit with the fingers. The claw in kenpo is a palm strike and the fingers follow to rake the eyes. The heel of the hand hits first, the fingers then glide across the rest of the face. I can train that on B.O.B for targeting or a stiff heavybag for the feel of impact. Mostly, I train them on live bodies (medium contact on the palm, ligher contact on the rake). Claws are also low percentage techniques and mainly used as a minor move to setup another strike, so they don't need bonecrushing power.

    How do you use a claw?
  4. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxthegeek1 View Post

    Second, I don't believe in meridians, I'm pretty sure most people on this forum don't either, and it would take a lot of convincing to get me to.
    Are we talking about the same meridians that acupuncturist use? There are a lot of people that believe in them. There is various debate on what they do, but to say they don't exist is ignorant. IMO

    Third, the idea that there is a bone conditioning program that both strengthens ones bones and ligaments but isn't detrimental to dexterity seems flawed to me. If our body was capable of producing bone structure simply through conditioning that was superior in every respect, it seems to me that humanity would have simply evolved to have that bone structure. The reason our bone structure is capable of changing, is that evolution has given us the tools to adapt to our environment. If there was one bone structure that was superior in every environment, then evolution would not have granted us that ability to adapt.
    Didn't you contradict yourself in this argument?
  5. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:56pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been lead to believe that the calcium in bones is set up in a honey comb structure that when impacted breaks down and repairs thicker as more calcium deposits cluster (the honeycombs' "holes" size decrease), much like other systems of the body, ie muscle growth, skin callus, etc, increasing the density and strength of the bone. By saying you want proof, would you require a before and after sample?
    As for denser bones in fists and legs usefulness, Einstein figured that out.
  6. hornyhobo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:57pm


     Style: elbow smash

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    Proper technique may mean hitting someone on the jaw, but sometimes the target moves and prevents you from hitting that perfect spot. So you will want to train for the worst case scenario, and hope for the best.

    And no, I'm not saying that. Nothing is useless. That is like saying it is better to do one push up a day than zero push ups a day. It is still useful, but if you are going to train, do it right.
    I never considered hand/fist conditioning to be that incredibly important. Where should I start?
  7. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:58pm

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    Not Einstein, Newton. Sorry.
  8. Mor Sao is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:59pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    I don't know who Bruce Downey is, so, whatever.

    Maybe a claw is done differently in your martial art than mine. I don't hit with the fingers. The claw in kenpo is a palm strike and the fingers follow to rake the eyes. The heel of the hand hits first, the fingers then glide across the rest of the face. I can train that on B.O.B for targeting or a stiff heavybag for the feel of impact. Mostly, I train them on live bodies (medium contact on the palm, ligher contact on the rake). Claws are also low percentage techniques and mainly used as a minor move to setup another strike, so they don't need bonecrushing power.

    How do you use a claw?
    Okay, I asked you if you strength train your claws/fingers and you ignored the question.

    let me ask you this again.

    You state you hit with the palm but do not train the palm and strengthen it.

    You then rake the fingers across the surface of what you are striking but do not mention any form of strength training to help make them stronger and perform better.

    How can you think that you would do anything other than make someone mad hitting them with an unconditioned weapon?

    do you strength train your fingers or not?

    if you don't then you strikes are not as strong as they could be.







  9. Mor Sao is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 8:02pm

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     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    Are we talking about the same meridians that acupuncturist use? There are a lot of people that believe in them. There is various debate on what they do, but to say they don't exist is ignorant. IMO



    Didn't you contradict yourself in this argument?
    he did.

    and I am working on my masters in acupuncture.

    If it was quackery, I would not be able to cure him of whatever pain he was having.

    But being that I can, and it would help....

    Funny that his disbelief in meridians does not affect my being able to help him in a time of need with acupuncture.







  10. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 8:04pm


     Style: American Kenpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Okay, I asked you if you strength train your claws/fingers and you ignored the question.

    let me ask you this again.

    You state you hit with the palm but do not train the palm and strengthen it.

    You then rake the fingers across the surface of what you are striking but do not mention any form of strength training to help make them stronger and perform better.

    How can you think that you would do anything other than make someone mad hitting them with an unconditioned weapon?

    do you strength train your fingers or not?

    if you don't then you strikes are not as strong as they could be.
    Well, finger strikes are to soft targes like the eye... I don't need to condition fingers extensively for that. I do pushups... that is the extent of finger conditioning. Claws, rakes and finger strikes are not meant to be finishing blows... they distract an opponent or blind them so they don't see or have time to react to a power blow. Maybe you employ them differently.

    As far as my palm strikes not being as powerful as they could be, ok... maybe, but I can still knock someone out with a palm strike. How much more powerful do they need to be?
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