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  1. Mor Sao is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:00pm

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     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    Whatever. Learn the difference between a possessive pronoun and a contraction.

    Again, what training value is there in breaking concrete with your bare hands? If you argue that you will strike harder, I will counter that you can knock someone out just fine without being able to break concrete. If you argue that it is a test of skill or some show of manhood, fine. Some lame ego boost is the only real benefit that I can see from the endeavor. If the argument is that you will be less likely to break your hand, then that is reasonable, but again, overkill. I can't break concrete but I can hit you full force with a fist or a palm strike and not break my hand. I still don't see the point. So, maybe I am missing the point. Please enlighten me... and look up the difference between a possessive and a contraction before you do.

    You are missing the point.

    You have no real power if you cannot hit anyone anywhere using any hand weapon and not hurt your hands.

    get it?

    its not about breaking the concrete. It is about training the hands to be able to hit without thinking about using a untrained hand, such as yours, and worrying that you can only use certain techniques.

    in a real encounter you have no time to think, you have to react. Palm heeling is not a palm strike, and yes you can hit with it. Im talking about real power and being able to hit using your maximum power ability. Being that you do not train your hands then you cannot use your maximum power as you have not developed it.

    what you are talking about is low level martial arts.

    Why not train in something that can create such more power, and less injuries and give you more weapons to use at will rather than what you are suggesting?
    Last edited by Mor Sao; 5/20/2009 7:03pm at .







  2. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:07pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    You are missing the point.

    You have no real power if you cannot hit anyone anywhere using any hand weapon and not hurt your hands.

    get it?

    its not about breaking the concrete. It is about training the hands to be able to hit without thinking about using a untrained hand, such as yours, and worrying that you can only use certain techniques.

    in a real encounter you have no time to think, you have to react. Palm heeling is not a palm strike, and yes you can hit with it. Im talking about real power and being able to hit using your maximum power ability. Being that you do not train your hands then you cannot use your maximum power as you have not developed it.

    what you are talking about is low level martial arts.

    Why not train in something that can create such more power, and less injuries and give you more weapons to use at will rather than what you are suggesting?
    Ok, I'll bite... how do you train your hands to deliver maximum power? Please give specifics. Also, what is your definition of the difference between high and low level martial arts?
  3. hornyhobo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:08pm


     Style: elbow smash

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    agreed.

    It is not about breaking concrete.

    it is about being able to hit and not break the hands and use every part of the hand. back of the hand, knife edge, fingers, hammerfist.

    If you think you can really strike people and hurt them without training your hands. you are incorrect.

    try hitting them harder next time or use the back of your hand and see what happens to your untrained hands.

    You will hurt them.
    You're not likely to injure yourself if you have proper technique and muscle strength in your hands and arms. Repeatedly punching something may strengthen bones a little bit, but all you're really doing is damaging your joints.

    In the end just strengthen your fingers, forearm, learn proper technique and stop wasting your time.
  4. hornyhobo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:14pm


     Style: elbow smash

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by zaohu View Post
    Since "Bone Conditioning" is a commonly practiced, traditional, and widely believed in form of training, shouldn't it be the skeptics job to prove that it DOESN'T work and not vice versa? I mean I don't practice the crap myself, but Galileo didn't tell anybody, "The world isn't flat until somebody proves to ME otherwise!" Since you're trying to get a point across to a larger group than yourself, that being the TMA guys who actually do practice it here, you should be the one doing some research or looking for scientific evidence to back up your view, not the one sitting around with a slurpee waiting to be convinced. Too many people have already done plenty of studying and claimed that science is on their side who will argue that this kind of conditioning really does work.

    So even though I'm with you, and don't believe in conditioning the bones by hitting trees or any BS like that, when it comes down to actually working to try to prove something does or doesn't work, the score reads: TREEHITTERS - 1, YOU - 0.
    Your quote makes no sense. Galileo didn't make a claim, and demand that other people prove it for him.

    The people who say you can strengthen bones with conditioning are making a claim. It's their responsibility to prove that claim, not ours.
  5. Mor Sao is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:15pm

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     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    Ok, I'll bite... how do you train your hands to deliver maximum power? Please give specifics. Also, what is your definition of the difference between high and low level martial arts?

    Low level martial arts/martial artists think you can do anything without training it.

    You want to palm people you better train it.

    You want to claw people you better train it.

    you want to grapple against people train it.

    It very simple.

    You do not train it, and use it you are going to injure yourself.







  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:16pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    karate people have no idea how to condition their bodies or their hands correctly.

    many karateka die from stomach and heart issues as those meridians are messed up with insane external only conditioning.

    I have baby soft hands and can twiddle my digits with ease.

    I can also break concrete and heads.

    Go figure who has a better conditioning program.
    Oh, well, if you're going to get all anecdotal and ****:

    I've bounced since the early eighties. Still do. Have done the KO when necessary, no gloves, no wraps...no harm to the hands. Decades of heavy-bag-type work on trees (which give a bit when struck, unlike concrete), combinations every morning in nearby parks. Hands a bit knobbly around the knuckles, but still totally free of any arthritis or other such conditions, and can still play piano. Also, neither heart- nor stomach-related pathologies (mind you, I think "meridians" are BS, but then I'm not CMA).

    I guess I'm one of the "karate people" who "have no idea how to condition their bodies or hands correctly". The two university degrees in kinesiology, with their sizable component of exercise-physiology, haven't helped at all.

    Breaking stone and fracturing skulls? Nothing remarkable there (must not be...I can do likewise)--it's all adaptation, nothing more.

    I'll concede on the baby-soft hands, though. Mine haven't been that way in decades, so you've got me there.
  7. Mor Sao is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:18pm

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     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hornyhobo View Post
    You're not likely to injure yourself if you have proper technique and muscle strength in your hands and arms. Repeatedly punching something may strengthen bones a little bit, but all you're really doing is damaging your joints.

    In the end just strengthen your fingers, forearm, learn proper technique and stop wasting your time.

    But most people do not do this. They just train their forms and flap their arms and hands around doing some dance of death and then think when they whack someone its going to work.

    You need to train your body and strengthen it along the routes you want to use it.

    I also train with Captains of Crush, a plate loading grip machine and kettlebells as well as resistance cables.

    Add this to iron palm and I can hit harder than someone who does not do these things.
    Last edited by Mor Sao; 5/20/2009 7:22pm at .







  8. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:19pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    Low level martial arts/martial artists think you can do anything without training it.

    You want to palm people you better train it.

    You want to claw people you better train it.

    you want to grapple against people train it.

    It very simple.

    You do not train it, and use it you are going to injure yourself.
    I don't disagree with any of that. I train on live bodies because I may fight a live body. Last time I checked, concrete blocks have never attacked anyone. So, I don't hit concrete, wood, or cinder blocks, ect.

    Obviously, I don't blast types of strikes on a training partner (claws to the face, ect.) but I can train those a a very stiff heavy bag, which is fairly close to a body, though not exact.
  9. hornyhobo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:21pm


     Style: elbow smash

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    But most people do not do this. They just train their forms and flap their arms and hands around doing some dance of death and then think when they whack someone its going to work.

    You need to train your body and strengthen it along the routed you want to use it.

    I also train with Captains of Crush, a plate loading grip machine and kettlebells as well as resistance cables.

    Add this to iron palm and I can hit harder than someone who does not do these things.
    A lot of fighters do train proper technique and strength.

    If you're talking about teenagers practicing bullshit kata and trying to win a fight with a "serpent strike", then that's a different story.
  10. lionknight is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 7:23pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    karate people have no idea how to condition their bodies or their hands correctly.

    many karateka die from stomach and heart issues as those meridians are messed up with insane external only conditioning.
    Retract these statements or provide some proof. Still waiting...
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