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  1. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2009 7:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by leyon View Post
    I just caught a glimpse of... I think it was Dale Dugan's profile and there is a video of him breaking what seems to be 4" of concrete with an open palm.

    If anyone has a video of that (or any similar concepts to that) being used in sparring I'd be really interested in see that.
    Well, in my own experience I started out punching wood, then steel.

    Lightly at first. Punch too hard, and you damage your knuckles, stopping you from further training for a while.

    It is a long term process of slight trauma, then healing, slight trauma then healing.

    Over time the nerves become deadened, the knuckles become calloused, and you do build up calcium deposits on the bones. Eventually, your soft strikes become harder and harder. To the point that after about six years of this, when I lightly tap people, they complain that I knocked the **** out of them. I can nail lamp posts, walls, and solid wood beams like I'm working a speed bag without much discomfort. If you can wail on solid metal, you can really do damage to something soft and mailable like say, a human face.

    Never go full power against the hard stuff. You will cause serious damage to your hands. Like I said, work your way up slowly, and treat it like a speed bag. Never full force. It's not your full force that gets increased, but your minimum force. Eventually your weakest strikes will carry a lot of power, and you wont hurt yourself when your bare fists intersect someone else's bones or teeth.

    Do I have a medical study to back this up? no. Sorry, I have only my experience, which I got into because of friends who could work out on steel lamp posts without even flinching. I tried their methods for shits and giggles, and got similar results.

    Am I going to try and sell you some snake oil? hell no.

    Are you going to tell me I'm full of ****? Probably.

    Do I care? Not a bit.

    Good luck finding that solid evidence in either direction, and train safe!:bully:
  2. Mor Sao is offline
    Mor Sao's Avatar

    Nothing for Show, All for use

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2009 7:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It sounds like you have read Iron and Silk and train very much like Pan Qing Fu, who does have deformed hands that I bet will not work all that well in his later years.

    you cannot be taken serious without video of your "training" and your hitting of solid objects.

    hence I put up video of my breaks.

    Why post up this information unless you do really care about what we think.

    Video or you are just blowing smoke
    Last edited by Mor Sao; 9/23/2009 7:41pm at .







  3. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2009 7:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    It sounds like you have read Iron and Silk and train very much like Pan Qing Fu, who does have deformed hands that I bet will not work all that well in his later years.

    you cannot be taken serious without video of your "training" and your hitting of solid objects.

    hence I put up video of my breaks.

    Why post up this information unless you do really care about what we think.

    Video or you are just blowing smoke
    I thought Pan Qing Fu was already in his later years.

    Honestly boss, I don't know the first thing when it comes to performing breaks like you do. And I'm not going to lie to you guys and say I could do it without injuring myself. I know that I would mess my hands up bad if I hauled off an punched a cinder block full force. While that would be an amusing video, I will have to respectfully decline. (Do you really want to see me hitting a wall with moderate intensity over and over again anyways? It's kind of boring.)

    I only do this stuff for conditioning, and not nearly on the level of the guy in Iron and Silk. (I'm not a pro, just an enthusiast.) The person who really got me into it though, was a friend who grew up doing karate. His regimen consisted of being whacked with bamboo in key places to harden both striking surfaces, and places where he would be hit. A high calcium diet ensured that his bones healed properly. Probably better for a young man who is still growing and resilient. But in any case, I once watched him fight a lamp post and win. You could also hit him as hard as you wanted square in his jaw, and only succeed in becoming his next lamp post...

    As for what you guys think? The OP asked, so I figured I'd chime in with my experience. Take it for what it is. Think what you want. I expect to be flamed in this place anyways. It serves me nothing to get all butt hurt about the opinion of others.

    You obviously know more about this than I do, so maybe you can help me out?

    Where do you teach? Maybe I could train with you sometime and improve my skills.
  4. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2009 8:05pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I went round and round in the TMA forum over this and took a lot of flack.

    I do Shorin ryu now and they harden the bodies hardcore. My Kyokushin school made it kind of optional although knuckle pushups and the makiwara were common.

    When I go against the forearms of the nidans, invariably the pain makes me cease. I am unable to decide whether there is actually a signficant difference in bone density or pain resistance is the cause.

    I did witness a color belt go against the forearms of one of the nidans, and his arms swelled up. The nidan was unharmed. I can't really account for that.

    Although I have done little conditioning of the hands, I have broken a stack of five boards with a hammer fist, without spacers.

    Anyway, I'm more inclined to believe it is true than I was, but it's hard to say.
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
    1) That it doesn't work
    2) That it does work"
    -Animal MacYoung
  5. Mor Sao is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2009 8:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I teach in Boston.

    Click on the links in my sig to see more information. If you cannot see them you can visit my site at Boston Baguazhang

    Would love to meet up.

    I can show you how not to hurt your hands.







  6. tyciol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2011 3:50am


     Style: Tae Kwon-Do, Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by zaohu View Post
    Since "Bone Conditioning" is a commonly practiced, traditional, and widely believed in form of training, shouldn't it be the skeptics job to prove that it DOESN'T work and not vice versa? I mean I don't practice the crap myself, but Galileo didn't tell anybody, "The world isn't flat until somebody proves to ME otherwise!"
    Galileo did that by arguing an alternative. He argued for roundness. By proving a positive you disprove the negative. There is not an alternative positive here to prove. If someone does not get thicker bones as a result of training it will just get blamed on improper training or diet.

    It is not the burden of a skeptic to disprove something accepted. Things that are accepted should be accepted on the basis of evidence, not merely anecdote.

    Or to use a controversial example, no it is not the duty of the atheist to disprove an omnipotent god, nor is it possible.
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