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  1. mkornecki is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:49pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    It won't be. Developing women aren't ideal for bone studies because of the role estrogen plays in bone growth and density. It's a confounder they can't control for.
    Oh, so no eyebrows raised at all? No increase in bone density whatsoever, but no questions asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    As for jockeys, I am not sure how much impact in force their bones get compared to punching something
    Ever ridden a horse? I also note that the compressive forces that were initially brought into this discussion were relatively low impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    (see the boxer study War Wheel posted which I notice you are ignoring).
    I'm ignoring? I miss ONE post between god knows how many and I'm being accused of intentional dishonesty? Give me a break. I didn't see it until now.
  2. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:53pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by mkornecki View Post
    What? There was no such assumption.

    They matched the participants in age weight and height to remove external factors. Statistical averaging would smooth out the effect of bias in any single data point.
    His point is that the group of women they selected is not particularly practical for this experiment (ie growing adolescent women).
  3. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:54pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by mkornecki View Post
    No studies have been produced that show an increase in density.



    Where's the beef? Or in this case, where's the bone density increase?
    War Wheel just put one up, and I quoted it. Read the thread.
  4. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    That pretty much settles it for me. Do you have a link so I can get the full article?
    http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/p...&startPage=863
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

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    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
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  5. mkornecki is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:54pm


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    So, glancing at the abstract...

    BMD in boxers is greater in arm, LEG and SPINE than in C1 and C2.

    Now you are telling me that a boxer's LEG is increasing in bone density due to him puching his target, but a jockeys assbone can't feel the impact because of the glute?

    You guys are getting a little vicious here. You're acting as if my points didn't have any validity whatsoever.
  6. mkornecki is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:57pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    His point is that the group of women they selected is not particularly practical for this experiment (ie growing adolescent women).
    I raise the point that since bone growth adolescent girls is maximal, any discrepancies in bone density would be further heightened.
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 2:58pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    Your neglecting to consider the environment. Even in bedrest gravity is still pulling down on us, not so on a vacuum environment.

    Bedrest is a good control though to see the effects of weight via gravity as distinct.
    Read what I wrote again. You're getting me exactly backwards. And not in a good way.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. mkornecki is offline

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    Posted On:
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    Do you guys have subscriptions to this site?
  9. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 3:02pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by mkornecki View Post
    So, glancing at the abstract...

    BMD in boxers is greater in arm, LEG and SPINE than in C1 and C2.

    Now you are telling me that a boxer's LEG is increasing in bone density due to him puching his target, but a jockeys assbone can't feel the impact because of the glute?

    You guys are getting a little vicious here. You're acting as if my points didn't have any validity whatsoever.
    I didn't say the assbone doesn't feel the impact, just that it's not the forces are sufficient to generate remodeling. Our asses get a lot of impact on a daily basis for even a normal person (not horseback riding), so you may not seen an effect compared to the boxer study, which is presents more abnormal forces requiring observable remodeling.

    In general though, the reason I am getting vicious is that you are simply playing devil's advocate for the sake of being devil's advocate, without (seeming) to know the science behind what you are talking about.

    No one has disagreed with you that tensile strength builds bone density. My position (I believe War Wheel's, but he can correct me if I am wrong) is that compressive forces also build bone density. Both types of forces build bone density (through altered bone remodeling) in an appreciable manner. You seem to be rejecting compressive forces for no logical reason, despite the evidence to the contrary we have provided. This evidence includes:

    1) The boxing study
    2) The pubmed articles I have provided about compressive forces driving bone remodeling (remember, remodeling leads to altered density--ie it's how it happens)

    Additionally, you try to draw analogies between muscle and bone without knowing the differing physiology between them.

    In other words, I don't mind having a meaningful debate and argument, but at this point you keep saying "it's tensile not compressive" without providing any physics (which War Wheel) or articles (besides the Jockey article which doesn't speak to the type of force, and has a lot of issues with the group studied) that says compressive forces don't remodel bones. If you want to argue, great, just back it up with some science.
  10. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 3:03pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by mkornecki View Post
    Do you guys have subscriptions to this site?
    Yes; I'm at a university with access to the article.

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