224790 Bullies, 3795 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 201 to 210 of 486
Page 21 of 49 FirstFirst ... 111718192021 2223242531 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    33,975

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 11:21am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    12345
    Last edited by It is Fake; 5/22/2009 11:42am at .
  2. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,664

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 11:34am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    That was an interesting read, thanks a lot. Its definitly a step in the right direction, which I think we have to thank Ronin69 for. Still, there is a flaw, which sadly enough prevents this from beeing "proof" for anything:

    To my knowledge, bone density is indeed measurable, but only with special equipment. Depending on the system it either works with x-ray or ultrasound. But you can not measure bone density from a "normal" x-ray picture (some conclusions can be drawn from metacarpal width, but thats a very rough approach afaik).

    See here for some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_mineral_density and here: http://courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opbmd.html

    The variance the x-ray tech claimed to have recognized, might just as well have been due to slight variances in exposure or the film material. Basically said, there is a probability that the guy was just guessing or got fooled by technical variance. Additionally, it seems like the way of questioning could have put pressure on him to find results.

    I would still like to know if there was any follow up to this? Seeing as the original comparison was made after 100 days, where there any more x-rays done later on? What were the results after completing the two year program?
    It might be possible to do this right. I have a scientific background, and I have been planning to get my lazy ass down to Dale's push hands group for a while. If I am going to spend a year or more of my life beating the crap out of poor defenseless beans, I would like for you all to settle (or at least discuss) what method(s) of bone density measurement are acceptable. If you guys are willing to do the work of settling on a method of density measurement, I will contact Dale.

    Disclaimer: If this is insanely expensive, I won't do it unless people are willing to defray the cost.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  3. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    33,975

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 11:41am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can't do it in any way to appease anyone.

    Here is my opinion why.



    Control group A: is the average person doing an average job.
    Control Group B: are the IP practitioners.
    Control Group C: is boxers or another style that hits heavy bags and pads on a regular basis for training.


    My argument has always been it works but, there are better methods for training and conditioning your hands now.

    For me, you'd have to not only prove it increases bone density, which I already believe through experience, significantly better than modern training methods.
  4. JohnnyCache is offline
    JohnnyCache's Avatar

    All Out of Bubblegum

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    10,471

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 11:58am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Jump to unwarranted assumptions much?

    My previous postings on the job make it clear that, like anyone else who's competent as a door-staffer, I defuse, via diplomacy, a great many potential situations before they develop into all-out brawls. In cases where violence has already broken out before I could arrive, the usual means of calming things down is separate, restrain, eject the combatants. The KO is very much a last-resort in situations where one is facing weapons (just outside the club door, for instance), or is outnumbered and cannot use restraints. In such cases, striking is legally justifiable. To use it in any other context is to invite civil and/or criminal proceedings. Since there's no pre-set schedule on when this is going to happen, I train accordingly.



    Nobody claimed that it did. The claim involved doing so, bareknuckled, with hands that are sufficiently conditioned that the chances of injuring them on the skull are reduced.



    Well, ****, stop the presses.



    ...and you can do quite a bit of driving without brakes. For a while.



    One goal of hand conditioning is neurological adaptation--one becomes sufficiently accustomed ("deadened") to the pain that it doesn't register as pain any more. One still feels impact, of course, but not pain.



    It'd be nice if "drunks" were the only combatants I had to deal with. Alcohol, by itself makes a lot of people so laid-back that there is no problem. Others, it affects differently, but restraints are usually sufficient if courtesy and diplomacy cannot calm them down. PCP and other drugs, juice and testosterone (the idiots who--while not drunk--start **** with you because you won't let them into the club in the first place due to reasons such as already-at-capacity, banned individuals, or dress-code) also add to what I have to deal with.

    Many thanks though, JC, for adding your valuable insights into a job you know next to nothing about.
    ****

    I thought you'd be taller.

    But really, asshole, this is what I'm trying to get you to figure out - you knock someone out and your hand doesn't break and you RETROACTIVELY justify your hand training with it. Did you have a big problem with smashing your hands all to pieces, so you kicked the tree in a montage for years, and then returned to the bouncing job, where you now noticed a far reduced incidence of shattering your hands on a PCP wielding maniac's tire iron?

    Bouncing, btw, is being a thug for a legal drug dealer, and is NOT a glamorous or cool job. Or a hard one. And you sound like an asshole I'd fire.

    I've been staffing bars and events for 8 years, and promoting events for about 2, BTW. I'm sure you're WAY older and WAY smarter than me, having knocked WAY more people out over your time on "the job" but I find that not being an asshole all the time means I have to put my hands on about one person a year, if that.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
    Diesel_tke's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    4,006

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 12:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    It might be possible to do this right. I have a scientific background, and I have been planning to get my lazy ass down to Dale's push hands group for a while. If I am going to spend a year or more of my life beating the crap out of poor defenseless beans, I would like for you all to settle (or at least discuss) what method(s) of bone density measurement are acceptable. If you guys are willing to do the work of settling on a method of density measurement, I will contact Dale.

    Disclaimer: If this is insanely expensive, I won't do it unless people are willing to defray the cost.

    I would like to know, also what a good measure of bone density is. I hit my bags and kick them regularly. I would like to measure before and after. Well, I guess it couldn't be before, because I have been at it for years. But I would like to measure current vs. maybe in a year.

    I guess there will be other variables though, I'll be 31 next month, so I'm guessing that my bones will still be growing. I don't know what age is optimum for bone growth. I also don't know if bone growth stops. At some point do they get as hard as possible and no more.

    I know my right shin is harder than my left, so I could use the left for a before and after. My knuckles have been beat on for years. But not the rest of my hand.

    Just an idea.
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,271

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 12:22pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    ****

    I thought you'd be taller.
    But really, asshole, this is what I'm trying to get you to figure out - you knock someone out and your hand doesn't break and you RETROACTIVELY justify your hand training with it.
    That would be about as logical as saying that driver-training is BS, just because you "didn't have an accident before you took driving lessons".

    Did you have a big problem with smashing your hands all to pieces, so you kicked the tree in a montage for years, and then returned to the bouncing job, where you now noticed a far reduced incidence of shattering your hands on a PCP wielding maniac's tire iron?
    No. I bought the whole "what's-good-enough-for-Oyama-is-good-enough-for-me" thing years before my first door gig in the early 80s. However, I have suffered far less, on the injured-hand front, than colleauges who do not condition their hands. That inference may not suffice for others' approval, but it is enough for me.

    Bouncing, btw, is being a thug for a legal drug dealer, and is NOT a glamorous or cool job. Or a hard one.
    This is about a logical as your claim that I was "bragging" about having, upon occasion, to KO individuals when (in my words) there was no other alternative, and when it was legally justifiable. Did anyone here state that bouncing was either glamorous or cool? As for level of difficulty, that depends on a great many variables (night of the week, venue, etc.)

    And you sound like an asshole I'd fire. I've been staffing bars and events for 8 years, and promoting events for about 2, BTW.
    You would have no need to fire someone who wouldn't work with you in the fist place. For any respectable doorman, working with a "legal drug dealer" as inexperienced as yourself could be a recipe for disaster.

    I'm sure you're WAY older and WAY smarter than me, having knocked WAY more people out over your time on "the job" but I find that not being an asshole all the time means I have to put my hands on about one person a year, if that.
    I find physical intervention (mostly restraint, occasionally more) is a relatively small percentage of my job. As previously described, prevention via courtesy and diplomacy is far more prevalent. However, at a two-thousand-capacity club in a high-trouble part of town, more vigourous intervention--unfortunately--winds up being necessary more than once a year.

    Meanwhile, anyone reading this pleasant conversation between the two of us will easily be able to discern, based on the language used (such as "macho dickbag" and other such gems), who the "asshole" is.
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,664

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 12:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You can't do it in any way to appease anyone.

    Here is my opinion why.



    Control group A: is the average person doing an average job.
    Control Group B: are the IP practitioners.
    Control Group C: is boxers or another style that hits heavy bags and pads on a regular basis for training.


    My argument has always been it works but, there are better methods for training and conditioning your hands now.

    For me, you'd have to not only prove it increases bone density, which I already believe through experience, significantly better than modern training methods.
    HMmm... I'd be willing to bet that there is a study out there comparing groups A and C, and I'd be willing to bet that they were able to measure a change in density. The really interesting question is in comparing groups B and C, not groups B and A. If dens(C)>dens(A) then dens(B) vs dens(C) is the only comparison that needs to be made. Now I am usually in group C, but have been slacking in the last 2 months or so. On the simplifying assumption that the typical heavybag workout increases density equally in both the lead and rear hands, I could IP train only 1 hand and train the other hand with wrap and glove against the heavy bag. Not perfect, but its dooable and structured in a way that a positive result, ie: dens(B) > dens(C) would indeed indicate that IP + boxing was adding more density than standard training alone. Now, unless one were to posit some non-linear synnergystic effect for the former combination of methods, I believe one would be safe in concluding that dens(B+C) > dens(C+C) implies dens(B)>dens(C).

    I realize that 'C+C' is an odd use of the nomenclature I introduced. Read as "regular boxing with both hands, plus extra boxing with one hand"

    Thoughts?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. JohnnyCache is offline
    JohnnyCache's Avatar

    All Out of Bubblegum

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    10,471

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 12:32pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm gonna go with the one that needs to **** talk a "tiny powder puff kickboxer" to feel tough

    Do you work for greasy guys in their 40s and 50s running bars? You can't really work doors or bars until you're 21, but I guess 8 years is just dabbling to a Dalton of your XP level.

    It's not REMOTELY analogous to "Driving training" - driving training would be martial arts training, period, in your analogy, I'd say. Hand conditioning would be more like, say, insisting you should drive with the windows down for "alertness" - who cares if it leaves you deaf in one ear and may actually hurt or have no effect on your "alertness" your dad did it, so you do it.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  9. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 12:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    That's pretty low since you know I'm not a chi-nut I just really couldn't find the damn post. I forgot it was on TMA.

    Though honestly threads like this are why some experienced people that aren't full of **** (like Ronin) don't post here anymore. "My door is open." may sound more mystical than it needs to but what more do you want? Not everyone is interested in developing scientific tests up to YOUR standards for stuff that they know works.
    This sounds like a cop out of the cop out. Mainly because it is.
    Look if you state:
    Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    karate people have no idea how to condition their bodies or their hands correctly.

    many karateka die from stomach and heart issues as those meridians are messed up with insane external only conditioning.
    And offer no evidence while alluding to having superior methods then expect to be questioned on it. Saying "my door is open" doesn't mean **** and is simply a cop out. What is he going to produce in person that he can't here?
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Whacker is offline
    Whacker's Avatar

    Pulling mount since '09

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    1,295

    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 12:35pm


     Style: jits da variedade brasile

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    HMmm... I'd be willing to bet that there is a study out there comparing groups A and C, and I'd be willing to bet that they were able to measure a change in density. The really interesting question is in comparing groups B and C, not groups B and A. If dens(C)>dens(A) then dens(B) vs dens(C) is the only comparison that needs to be made. Now I am usually in group C, but have been slacking in the last 2 months or so. On the simplifying assumption that the typical heavybag workout increases density equally in both the lead and rear hands, I could IP train only 1 hand and train the other hand with wrap and glove against the heavy bag. Not perfect, but its dooable and structured in a way that a positive result, ie: dens(B) > dens(C) would indeed indicate that IP + boxing was adding more density than standard training alone. Now, unless one were to posit some non-linear synnergystic effect for the former combination of methods, I believe one would be safe in concluding that dens(B+C) > dens(C+C) implies dens(B)>dens(C).

    I realize that 'C+C' is an odd use of the nomenclature I introduced. Read as "regular boxing with both hands, plus extra boxing with one hand"

    Thoughts?
    Isn't the point mostly to eliminate as many external variables as possible for the purposes of the study? I was going to suggest asking Samuel Browning for some input here, as those legal types excel at poking holes in arguments and statements, and might be able to think of other factors that haven't been considered yet.
    Last edited by Whacker; 5/22/2009 12:38pm at . Reason: grammar dur

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.