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  1. Cannon_6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 10:44am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KidSpatula View Post
    ...actual muaythai fighters do not bang their shins or kick palm trees or poor acid on their legs...
    I kick my neighbor's Rottweiler. Granted, his body's not quite as hard as a heavybag, but I think the bites are really starting to toughen me up.
  2. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 11:33am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    In and of itself, there is no logical fallacy committed by expecting proof of a negative.

    Actually you can prove a negative, Kempofist. - No BS Martial Arts
    You're right. Then again, in that part of the post I did not state that proving a negative was a logical fallacy. I was addressing zaohu's comparison that Galileo championing the theory of a heliocentric solar system is different than trying to prove a negative. Galileo proposed an alternative theory as opposed to just saying "The theory that the world is the center of the universe is wrong."

    An argument from ignorance is always a logical fallacy. I suppose I could have been wrong in assuming that also meant the burden of proof would be on the proponents of iron body conditioning, but making an argument that states "because there's no proof to the contrary, this is right" is a logical fallacy.
  3. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 12:16pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, it's not. At least it's not an "argument to ignorance" whatsoever.

    For example

    "Unicorns exist"

    No, they don't

    "that's an argument to ignorance, you didn't give an alternative theory"

    No, it's not.

    Galileo obviously had to account for the sun being in the sky - he couldn't argue against its obvious existence. I already have plenty of alternative explanations for bone deposition. Resistance, rather then impact, being the source of most or all of it is my "heliocentric theory" if you haven't figured that out.

    Even so, had he not included the heliocentric theory and just said, "I don't know where the fucking thing is, but it doesn't make sense that it goes around the earth, so it must be somewhere else," he still would have been right.

    But even it was, the people ITT who don't understand science have given plenty for me.

    For example, studies of people with lifetimes in the martial arts - assumptively they've practiced MANY methods of training. Assumptively they were screened by laypeople. Very little work has been done to isolated striking conditioning in their training regimen. This fails to evaluate the hypothesis, it instead evaluates the hypothesis "are lifetime athletes sturdier then the GP"


    You scraped up your knuckles/shin until you built a callus or other dermal effect and you notice less pain there when you bang that area hard against something? That doesn't evaluate the hypothesis.

    You broke a concrete slab? That doesn't evaluate the hypothesis.

    You point out that weightlifting or other resistance activities? That doesn't test the hypothesis.

    You tell a non-striker half your size to come fight you if he doesn't believe it? Doesn't test the hypothesis.

    Pointing out the simplistic medical fact that bone "heals thicker" after a break (thicker? Maybe. Stronger for striking? Less brittle?) or that thicker bones result from resistance training don't test the hypothesis either - that's actually bullet points in the opposing evidence pile. That's saying, "the unicorn is plausible - hooves and bushy tails exist in nature, and the unicorn has hooves and a bushy tail"

    CBF: The scientific method involves testing an assertion in the best possible isolation. You do make a positive assertion as part of science. Just like a debate, you "pick a side" and then evaluate it.

    Dale Dugas: Breaking things is a joke. Palm strikes are incredibly biomechanically safe, probably the single safest way to hit someone, with or without conditioning.

    On acupuncture: If acupuncture is of benefit for some things, let's for god's sake find out what and why - when we found out certain teas and plants had real medical uses, we isolated the compounds that made them work and made real medicine out of them.





    You guys are still bashing your hands into stuff because you want to believe.
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 5/21/2009 12:28pm at .
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  4. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 12:22pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The burden of proof seems unfairly high in this thread. For example this statement would be enough for me:

    "Conditioning my hands has made me able to break things that I used to not be able to break."

    However the opponents in this thread seem to want evidence that it is not only effective but contributes to some sort of bone growth that specifically aids striking. Why isn't efficacy enough in this thread vs almost all the other threads on Bullshido?

    YouTube - Baseball Bat Breaking
    Last edited by WhiteShark; 5/21/2009 12:36pm at .
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 12:31pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by zaohu View Post
    The best way to go about this in my opinion is to use an "innocent until proven guilty" sort of approach. The theory isn't BS until proven BS.
    My general philosophy—the scientific method—is just the opposite: Any theory should be met with skepticism unless there is evidence for it.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 12:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KidSpatula View Post
    Actual fighters spend their time doing ACTUAL FIGHT TRAINING...
    Yeah, all that rope-skipping, all that other cardio, all the tractor-tire throws, all the core work, all the weight-training, and so on...a total waste of time.
  7. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 1:12pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WS: **** breaking. Bone conditioning via striking has NOTHING to do with breaking as far as I can see, except in the minds of people that do both.

    "I can break something I couldn't break before" is the epitome of unscientific, anecdotal, uncontrolled evidence.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  8. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 1:13pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Yeah, all that rope-skipping, all that other cardio, all the tractor-tire throws, all the core work, all the weight-training, and so on...a total waste of time.
    What a masterful journey from A to C.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  9. Snake Plissken is offline
    Snake Plissken's Avatar

    When I Get Back

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 1:18pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Round up all the Bullshido posters with "Scientist" tags and get to work.
  10. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 1:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Yeah, all that rope-skipping, all that other cardio, all the tractor-tire throws, all the core work, all the weight-training, and so on...a total waste of time.
    Are you agreeing with me or arguing with me? If you're arguing with me, I guess you don't know what "actual fight training" is.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
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