5/21/2009 3:19am, #111
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Vancouver, BC
...its a medical fact.
When you cause small fractures in bone, the bone recalcifies stronger.
Not only that, but its evident that this type of training is beneficial to many fighters.
What does this argument really amount to? "Lots of people do it, therefore it must be right"? Or perhaps (only marginally better) "Successful people do it, therefore it must be right"? Lyoto Machida drinks his own urine and he’s a terrific fighter, yet I wouldn’t recommend the practice...
No, ultimately, we’re still stuck at the observation that a set of people practice in ways that include what you classify as bone conditioning; that the training regimen as a whole produces good fighters; but that no evidence has been provided to support the claim that this bone conditioning aspect is a useful part of the practice.
We can see that simply by looking at the training practices of kyokushin karate, and muay thai, and boxing, and pretty much any other striking art. In KK they condition their fists, in muy thai they condition their shins, in boxing they work on the heavy bag for their hands.
As for boxers, well, of course they work the heavy bag, but I don’t get the impression that most boxers believe that the purpose thereof is to condition the bones in their hands. Rather, once again, I think it’s about working technique, for which tactile feedback is necessary, and practicing to hit things hard. I’m not banking any money on this bone conditioning working, but I’d still like to get a heavy bag when I have somewhere to hang it.
5/21/2009 4:08am, #112
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
I get what you're saying. Of course I agree that just because certain training practices are prevalent in all of the major striking arts doesn't PROVE that they are effective, as you said, it only proves that they believe they are effective. However I do find it unlikely that bone conditioning should be believed to be effective in all of these different combat sports just by coincidence. This is anecdotal evidence, but I personally think its pretty convincing.
I agree that if bone conditioning were to be a valid training method, it would probably be more effective on the shins than in the hands (being composed of small bones).
Kyokushin kareteka smash their hands on rocks. I'm pretty convinced that smashing your hands on rocks fractures your bones. I don't know if it specifically fractures the bones which are most frequently broken in boxing.
Your example of Lyoto Machida I think isn't really getting at what I was talking about. Drinking ones urine isn't a training method which is accepted across cultural borders and in most combat sports. If it was I still wouldn't drink my urine, because there's a reason it isn't accepted at large (being disgusting and unhealthy).
Again this is referencing anecdotal evidence, but its been my personal experience that boxers I've met have really thick heavy feeling hands. Of course that could be just because people with bigger hands gravitate more towards boxing, but I think theres something to it.
My guess would be if you did a study on the shins of muay thai practioners, you'd find that they would be really fucked up and calcified. I mean, I know people who have had their shins calcify from accidentally hitting themselves with a hammer, i can only imagine what itd be like for the muay thai guys.
5/21/2009 4:55am, #113
To put it in a nutshell, I'm not arguing for either side, but saying that by starting the debate in the way it was started in this thread is ineffective.
The best way to go about this in my opinion is to use an "innocent until proven guilty" sort of approach. The theory isn't BS until proven BS. After all, we aren't commies here, or at least not most of us. So if a skeptic wants proof one way or another, he should be the one to find it.
All commies are free to try to change my mind on the best way to approach this here, though..."Intelligence is nothing more than discussing things with others. Limitless wisdom comes of this." - 山本 常朝
5/21/2009 9:17am, #114Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
"Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ
"Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken
My Bullshido fan club threads:
Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
ATTN TOM KAGAN
World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
5/21/2009 9:33am, #115
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
On another forum, Khun Kao recently pointed out that, of all the "Muay Thai Leg Break" videos floating around on YouTube, none of the guys are actual Muay Thai fighters. They're all K-1 and MMA guys/gals.
5/21/2009 10:02am, #116
it is about being able to hit and not break the hands and use every part of the hand. back of the hand, knife edge, fingers, hammerfist.
Finger, is more of a grey area. My interpretation of it was the curling of the fingers when making a fist. Since you are using your fingers as part of the striking area they need to be strong and/or conditioned. This was my take on it, but Dale can state his own case.
As for "proof" of Bone Conditioning, I don't see this as an area of great concern for Medical Science. And what factual support there 'may' be, would probably be tainted or skewered.
I suspect we will have a bunch of anecdotal evidence and nothing much more.
5/21/2009 10:16am, #117As the western world has been unsuccessful in treating Fibromyalgia, the doctor's at Shands Hospital in Gainsville have been sending people to be treated by acupuncturists. They have actually been getting better results than new treatments like Cymbalta and Pain Management Clinics.
But citing that something worked better than Cymbalta for Fibromyalgia is misleading. Cymbalta is an adjunctive treatment; it's not supposed to work by itself. Lyrica, on the other hand, IS a frontline treatment, and is specifically for fibromyalgia, while Cymbalta is primarily for panic/depression ; comparing treatment A to a small gun drug is kind of ridiculous.
Also, cymbalta is relatively old compared to it's successors, Lyrica for Fibromyalgia, and Pristiq for Depression/Panic.
5/21/2009 10:21am, #118
Last edited by Torakaka; 5/21/2009 10:24am at .Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
5/21/2009 10:32am, #119
5/21/2009 10:37am, #120
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- Aug 2007