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  1. Whacker is offline
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    Pulling mount since '09

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2009 11:30pm


     Style: jits da variedade brasile

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting thread. Posting to subscribe. And one small thing I'd like to respond to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    So you start using 'vital area' strikes to try to even the playing field, even try to get the advantage.

    What is to keep the wrestler/grappler from doing the same though? This is where this argument, which has been presented dozens and dozens of times on here, falls apart.

    No wrestler/grappler is going to just sit there and try to hug you to death when you are trying to strike their eyes. They'll retaliate.
    I agreed with your post with the following exception regarding the text I've selected. Vital point striking is far from an end-all be-all solution to any fight, I think we'd all agree to this. However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.

    As to the point regarding the grappler retaliating by striking, this is certainly true and even to be expected. Doing so would generally require one or both hand(s) releasing grip in order to do so. As such this could confer an, not THE, advantage back to the striker, who could possibly use that opportunity to break the clinch and regain distance.

    Of course this is all hypothetical discussion at best, every situation is different and generalizing is not always a good idea, hence why I've tried not to be definitive with my statements. What I've said those has mirrored some of my experiences in school under pressure, but then again it is against my peers, while we do train in grappling and groundfighting it is not our strongest point, so take this as ye will.

    Lastly please note I'm not saying that the Kung Fu duder is going to wipe the floor with a grappler because of this, or that it's an effective "anti-grapple", or any nonsense like that. Nothing can replace good grappling skills and experience when the rubber hits the road. I'm just focusing on the point that superior striking knowledge and ability can be far more effective than some folks who may be unfamiliar with it realize.
  2. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2009 11:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sil lum fighter View Post
    But my question to you and to any other person who has doubts about kung fu working is this.......Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???
    Because power issued from the hands comes ultimately from the legs.

    Get on your knees and throw a punch. Can you generate as much force as you could if standing?



    Really?


    Will you video it so I can see?
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2009 11:50pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Interesting thread. Posting to subscribe. And one small thing I'd like to respond to.



    I agreed with your post with the following exception regarding the text I've selected. Vital point striking is far from an end-all be-all solution to any fight, I think we'd all agree to this. However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.
    You are nitpicking.
  4. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 12:33am

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.
    I guess my best response, as IIF said, would be to find a wrestler/grappler and try it out. Have the other person wear goggles so you can use force in your eye gouges. I know it would suck to finger-stab the goggles, but I can't think of another way to allow eye gouge attempts :-P. They would still be very jarring with goggles on.

    It should become very apparent that the game is not one of finding the vital areas but rather freeing up your arms and preventing him from taking you down. His job is to steal any space you might create, use gravity to his advantage, and control your limbs, head, and center of mass.

    He will break down your posture, keep you off your base, constantly be 'feeling' for weight distribution and shifts, etc. If you do free an arm, he also has a free arm with which to arm drag/cross face/single-necktie/punch/etc.

    At this point, I can't type anything more than 'try it out.' Ming's post above to the OP sums up anything that I could possibly say in a much more elegant and concise manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    but you didn't expect to be attacked by kung fu guys. that was your mistake.

    the reason we don't think the techniques would work? we tried them. against competent grapplers.
    Last edited by Uncle Skippy; 5/19/2009 12:43am at . Reason: props to IIF
  5. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 12:58am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have worked pressure point tactics against a grappler (blue belt BJJ + I think yellow or green belt judo), mostly in the form of pressuring the ribs or armpit with the knuckles or thumbs, grinding with the forearms or thumb knuckles under the ribcage or at the kidneys from a front bodylock, kicking the shins (I spar with shoes on) and hacking the heel into the outside of the lower thigh, throwing short uppercuts to the solar plexis or liver (sometimes if there's space and I feel stable I can sneak a snap kick off the front leg up there), and headbutting (if we're wearing headgear) . I don't consider this my anti-grapple though, since I'm only able to do this stuff because I have some understanding of clinch positioning and how to interfere with someone's attempt to take me down (I mostly try to keep distance between his hips and mine, because my strategy is to hit from the clinch, not take down unless I have a very safe option). I've noticed that these tactics work well on my training partner because he is very reactive to pressure points, while a lot of people are not (at least for me, causing a reactions is a lot more important than causing pain).
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 1:16am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, Whacker is missing a very important point. That's why I said nitpicking.

    Vital area striking works if you have grappling in your repertoire. Notice this?

    while we do train in grappling and groundfighting it is not our strongest point, so take this as ye will.
    Now hopefully this is legit grappling. I don't know so, I'm going to assume it is legit.

    That is the flaw in your argument. You have grappled so, you are basing your point on that perception.

    Most people, that use vital areas as a reason, have never done a lick of grappling in their life. They believe what they are told without, ever experiencing the actuality of grappling pressure. They tend to say things like this:

    Here is an example of how kung fu can and will work against a grappler. From a standing position you get into it with a grappler. The grappler ties you up in a collar to elbow tie up like you see in wrestling. From this point you have one hand on or around the grapplers neck. It is very easy to strike the throat or eyes with an open hand strike using the finger tips or leopard paw to the throat from here because of how close the hand is already to the target.
    .
  7. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 1:26am

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      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Actually, Whacker is missing a very important point. That's why I said nitpicking.

    Vital area striking works if you have grappling in your repertoire. Notice this?
    Which Codos' point reinforces as well:

    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    I don't consider this my anti-grapple though, since I'm only able to do this stuff because I have some understanding of clinch positioning and how to interfere with someone's attempt to take me down
    Seems I missed the bigger picture myself. :-P
    Last edited by Uncle Skippy; 5/19/2009 1:37am at .
  8. sil lum fighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 8:37am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sil Lum Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nomamao View Post


    I'm not sure if you meant this above or this below.



    But, please let me know where the death blow would be dealt and how.

    You guys are worthless scum bags. Where did I say that it was a death blow? Its a strike that will give you the chance to follow up with other strikes. The only death blow is the blow job that you give your boyfriend. I try to have a civilized talk and you want to be an ass.
  9. sil lum fighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 8:43am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sil Lum Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Because power issued from the hands comes ultimately from the legs.

    Get on your knees and throw a punch. Can you generate as much force as you could if standing?

    Really?

    Will you video it so I can see?
    I can get enough power to hurt you. I can still poke the eyes, strike the temple, strike the throat, pull the hair, etc.... All these strikes don't take much power. You people are just hard headed aren't you? You people want to be this way, I'll be that way right back tyo every siingle one of ya.
  10. sil lum fighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2009 8:47am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sil Lum Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    Interesting thread. Posting to subscribe. And one small thing I'd like to respond to.

    I agreed with your post with the following exception regarding the text I've selected. Vital point striking is far from an end-all be-all solution to any fight, I think we'd all agree to this. However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.

    Once again I never said it was the end all solution BUT it will give you the chance to follow up with some other strikes that might be the end all solution. Do YOU just use one strike? I would hope not. I would use several strikes. A strike to the eyes and follow it up with several punches and/or kicks. Or something.
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