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  1. Kambei Shimada is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 5:01am


     Style: Sub-Grap/MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    How do they know what ancient greek striking was supposed to be like? What is the basis for those strange "fondling" motions they do between attacks? How did they get _ing _un like chainpunches (at the very end of the video even accompanied with a "foom foom foom") in there?
    That's exactly what i thought, Chuntastic.

    Interesting how many older boxing styles favoured an almost Chun like stance.
  2. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 5:11am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    A quick googling produces some images like this:
    which look more like modern boxers and lack the weird 'bow and arrow' stance.

    It actually looks less like empty-handed sword-and-shield than shield-and-spear, which is the primary way a classical-era Greek would be familiar with armed fighting.
    Hehe, that posture looks surprisingly similar to that of old english boxers. Especially when they where not actually fighting, but posing for photographs.

    As I already stated, I have not delved into the realm of ancient greek sports/martial arts all too deep until now. So everything I say is just personal opinion/gut feeling.

    What I think is, that in this special case something went wrong with the process of revival. Simply because there was nothing to revive firsthand. If you want to learn boxing, you just visit the gym around the corner. The boxing you learn there does not (at least that is what I think) differ all too much from the boxing one would have learned in Athens a few thousand years ago.

    It has been argued, that there is a difference between boxing bare-knuckled, as opposed to boxing with handwrappings or gloves. But imho that is a difference of personal style, not of different arts or sports.

    One of the claimed differences is a lower and wider guard of the bareknuckle boxers and shorter excanges (going in and out faster) while the glove boxers would go more for the clinch. Well, just try and compare Muhammad Ali with Mike Tyson. Two boxers born and raised with the glove. Yet Ali had his arms down constantly, jumping in and out of the fight, while Tyson used a tight, well closed guard and stood his position like a rock. Simply personal preference within the same art.

    Now what does this lengthy excurse boil down to?

    Well, I think those guys had a problem with "reviving" ancient greek boxing. Because what good is it to revive an ancient art, if the product of your deeds is something average Joe learned back in highschool?

    I believe that they, probably unknowing and unwillingly, developed a bias in their works, because they needed to find "t3h anci3nt". They started their research wanting the results to differ from modern boxing. A common problem in research of all scientific fields. Basically, you end up with what you were looking for.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 5:32am

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    It took some detective work, but I've found the ACTA homepage (this is the group doing the ancient Greek boxing demo in the OP) - http://www.acta-archeo.com/html/index.php . It's in French. They're evidently a semi-professional company specializing in presentations of ancient martial arts/combat sports for historical centers, etc.
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 5:51am

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post

    It has been argued, that there is a difference between boxing bare-knuckled, as opposed to boxing with handwrappings or gloves. But imho that is a difference of personal style, not of different arts or sports.

    One of the claimed differences is a lower and wider guard of the bareknuckle boxers and shorter excanges (going in and out faster) while the glove boxers would go more for the clinch. Well, just try and compare Muhammad Ali with Mike Tyson. Two boxers born and raised with the glove. Yet Ali had his arms down constantly, jumping in and out of the fight, while Tyson used a tight, well closed guard and stood his position like a rock. Simply personal preference within the same art.
    Gloves vs. bare knuckles is only part of the difference (the other parts include timed/limited rounds vs. victory only by KO/surrender, the inclusion of standing grappling and throwing vs. breaking from the clinch, whether or not the bout was fought in a defined ring, etc.)

    You're right in that individual boxers of all eras for which we have detailed records have evidently had "personal" styles. However, from the early 19th century onwards, we have more than enough detail (blow-by-blow newspaper accounts, instructional manuals written by champion boxers and their coaches, etc.) to be able to confidently define "typical" styles for those eras (London Prize Ring rule, early Queensberry rules, early amateur/"scientific" rules, etc. Basically, the rules and equipment define the style.

    Now what does this lengthy excurse boil down to?

    Well, I think those guys had a problem with "reviving" ancient greek boxing. Because what good is it to revive an ancient art, if the product of your deeds is something average Joe learned back in highschool?

    I believe that they, probably unknowing and unwillingly, developed a bias in their works, because they needed to find "t3h anci3nt". They started their research wanting the results to differ from modern boxing. A common problem in research of all scientific fields. Basically, you end up with what you were looking for.
    Maybe. Try a search for "ancient Greek boxing" on GoogleBooks; there's actually quite a lot of info out there. Like I said earlier, lacking specific technical details and defined rules it's always going to be speculative, but from what I've been reading so far, I'd say that what these guys are doing is at least within the bounds of "acceptable accuracy". Again, it really comes down to what they're claiming. If they're honestly saying "this is the way we think it was done, based on X research and such-and-such type of pressure-testing", then fair enough - that's just good old hands-on experimental archaeology.
  5. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 7:15am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hello
    Yes it is hard to find sources, and really for things that ancient, as kwan_dao said, it will always be an educated guess at best unless we fine the ancient Greek equivalent of the pugilist for dummies.

    Anyway this is the best source I am aware of
    http://www.historical-pankration.com...wrestling.html

    That being said as long as people are upfront with what you do and how you get there, as DdlR said. I think it is fine.
    Phil
  6. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 9:00am

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    So basically we have the same sort of sources for these assertions that we have to assert that ancient Egyptians walked with their arms out in front of and behind them like snakes?
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  7. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2009 10:33am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    So basically we have the same sort of sources for these assertions that we have to assert that ancient Egyptians walked with their arms out in front of and behind them like snakes?


    Yes,
    It is pretty much trying to recreate boxing using the rocky movies.
    Now with the texts and the pictures and may be existing tradition like dambe (YouTube - [CNN] Traditional Nigerian 'Dambe' Boxing 2008.07.14), pre WWII pugilistic material especially with wrapped fist, modern wrestling and striking, You can possibly extrapolate something descent.

    Personally I think it is already very difficult to come up with something descent when you do have explicit and verbose text (and may be with pics) from a dedicated manual.
    But can they really do more damage that the existing plethora of pseudo- multiple style-8belt-4tags a belt-fast track black belt program.
  8. bludhall is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2009 12:01pm


     

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    well actually how you fight depends on what you are doing

    a modern boxer would get destroyed in ancient Greek boxing, the technicality of modern boxing is based upon modern safety equipment like wraps and gloves. As many are finding in MMA evern with hand wraps and gloves, when you hit skull you break bones.
    if you look at english pugilism which preceded modern boxing they fought differently too.
    What greek boxers and english pugilists do is oprotect thier hands and use the arms for defense rather than head mnovement.

    this interpetations of boxing are very good.

    If you want sources for ancient boxing technique
    http://historical-pankration.com my website.

    i beleive that some of these older bioxing concepts would show up more in modern MMA if we didnt use wraps or gloves to protect the hand.
  9. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2009 2:00pm


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by bludhall View Post
    well actually how you fight depends on what you are doing

    a modern boxer would get destroyed in ancient Greek boxing, the technicality of modern boxing is based upon modern safety equipment like wraps and gloves. As many are finding in MMA evern with hand wraps and gloves, when you hit skull you break bones.
    if you look at english pugilism which preceded modern boxing they fought differently too.
    What greek boxers and english pugilists do is oprotect thier hands and use the arms for defense rather than head mnovement.

    this interpetations of boxing are very good.

    If you want sources for ancient boxing technique
    http://historical-pankration.com my website.

    i beleive that some of these older bioxing concepts would show up more in modern MMA if we didnt use wraps or gloves to protect the hand.
    Oh please, this is basically a variation of the sports vs. street debate. Not again.

    And the argumentation is a bit wierd. Sorry if that comes about rather harsh, but truth is truth. Modern boxers use head movement for protection, and not their arms? Thats supposed to be a joke, right?

    You even counter your own argument. Because this thread happens to be about ancient greek boxing and how those ancient greek boxers used "cestae". A protective hand wrapping. Made of frigging oxen-skin.

    Care to explain the major differences between wearing a handwrap and gloves to wearing a (padded) wrap and a wound-around length of thick leather? Except that maybe the raw leather may be rougher on the opponents skin, thus leading to more cuts?

    What are the exact differences in the rulesets between modern boxing and ancient greek boxing? And how do you know? From which sources exactly? How exactly do those ruleset differences change run-of-the-mill strikes like the jab, cross, hook or underhook or make them unappliccable?

    When you said that a modern boxer would be "destroyed" in a match of ancient greek boxing, where you referring to a match against todays "revivalists", or to a hypothetical match against actual ancient greek boxers? If the first option applies, where and when did any one of them fight against a trained modern boxer?

    Edit: BTW: If you take a look on youtube, you will find out that there are videos of quite recent bareknuckle matches. Yes such things still happen. In Ireland for example. At least they did until recently. And guess what? While those bareknuckle boxers fight their fights without gloves or other protection, they train just the exact same way as every other boxer on this planet.
    Last edited by kwan_dao; 5/15/2009 2:18pm at .
  10. bludhall is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2009 6:11pm


     

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    Oh please, this is basically a variation of the sports vs. street debate. Not again.

    And the argumentation is a bit wierd. Sorry if that comes about rather harsh, but truth is truth. Modern boxers use head movement for protection, and not their arms? Thats supposed to be a joke, right?
    now now don't get all uppity on me, i study modern boxing too and appreciate it, but ancient boxing was another beast entirely. Yes modern boxers do not use their arms for defense as much as many ancient styles did. Although head movement is mentioned in literary sources. The main reason for less of the stick and move stuff is it was looked upon unfavorably, ladders were even used to limit the footwork space between overly defensive combatants.

    You even counter your own argument. Because this thread happens to be about ancient greek boxing and how those ancient greek boxers used "cestae". A protective hand wrapping. Made of frigging oxen-skin.
    Well i am talking about ancient greek boxing and pankration not the roman Pancratium which used the Cestea, ancient greeks did not use the cestae they did however invent the MMA glove and tie the hands with leather cords.

    Care to explain the major differences between wearing a handwrap and gloves to wearing a (padded) wrap and a wound-around length of thick leather? Except that maybe the raw leather may be rougher on the opponents skin, thus leading to more cuts?
    well modern hand wrapping is much more effective at protecting the hand, but the ancient greeks to be sure used hand wraps but it didnt help anywhere near as much as modern boxing or even MMA

    When you said that a modern boxer would be "destroyed" in a match of ancient greek boxing, where you referring to a match against todays "revivalists", or to a hypothetical match against actual ancient greek boxers? If the first option applies, where and when did any one of them fight against a trained modern boxer?
    Well let me clarify that, but first understand that an ancient boxer would also get destroyed in a modern boxing battle.
    Ancient boxing was different than events today, Pankration too, often heavy athletics were done in the noon day sun, no rounds or weight limits and the match went on unilt one fell. Sometimes in boxing matches they would do the Klimax where they took free hits on each other to determine a winner. Thumbing the eyes was common as was many other fouls, fouling being punishabler by a smack with a stick rather than points taken off or disqualification. A very different environment for a modern boxer no?


    BTW: If you take a look on youtube, you will find out that there are videos of quite recent bareknuckle matches. Yes such things still happen. In Ireland for example. At least they did until recently. And guess what? While those bareknuckle boxers fight their fights without gloves or other protection, they train just the exact same way as every other boxer on this planet.
    well its an establ,ished fact that the modern boxing we have today is very different even from the old english pugilism it evolved from, primarily because of the gloves , striking changed when more hand protection was given. Its not a knock on modern boxing just a understanding of how a sport changes the art attached thats all. All of the boxing arts are combat sports so there is not sport vs reality argument here, i do not beleive in that nonsense.

    What are the exact differences in the rulesets between modern boxing and ancient greek boxing? And how do you know? From which sources exactly? How exactly do those ruleset differences change run-of-the-mill strikes like the jab, cross, hook or underhook or make them unappliccable?
    there is alot of rules that are different, rounds , weight limits, fouls,. The defensive elements changed too based on how you get attacked, that bow stance is to protect against the heavy hammer fist from above which was one of the big power strikes in boxing/pankration.
    Boxing, wrestling and pankration rules are on my website.
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