Thoracic rotation and MMA punching

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 2/25/2009 3:22pm

There is a lot of effective punching in MMA that looks "bad" from a formal boxing prespective, not just in a "bad form/you might get countered" sense, but in a "that's not how you generate power" sense. Fedor comes to mind, as do Vitor (bear with me), Baroni, and Chuck. There are many other examples, but for now, let me stick with these four.

By Thoracic rotation, I mean not just rotation of the trunk, but rotation of the upper trunk (to see the difference, look over your shoulder - literaly). Generating power through this kind of rotation is familiar in G&P, and in punching a downed fighter while standing (ala Belfort). it is a good source of rotational energy when the feet are planted, or when the hips can not be otherwise engaged to add power to a punch.

Boxers call this "arm punching", but I think there is an important difference between pure arm punching, and punching using a secondary form of rotation to replace the hips in contexts where standard hip power is not available. In actuality, I think boxers do sometimes tap this extra pathway of power generation. They just don't talk about it explicitly.

I don't know if any fighters specifically train this, or just do it naturally, but those that are able to tap this as a secondary source of power are able to rock people on the ground with above average power, and rock people on their feet from unorthodox positions.

First off, let me show a couple of example of the type of movement I am talking about on the ground

YouTube - Tank Abbott vs Hugo Duarte
1:00 - You could say Tank just has strong arms, but power is being loaded into the trunk as well as the arm.

Fedor, I think, is even more adept at utilizing this. He unloads the rotational energy in a snappy manner, just like any good boxer will do with the energy loaded onto the hip.

YouTube - Fedor HL
2:45-3:00

In MMA standup there are many positions where hip power generation is compromised, or is all together unavailable. A few are where:

1. The feet are parallel or close to parallel to facilitate TD defence;

2. Hip rotation is unavailable because the fighter is bending at the waist to strike a downed opponent;

3. Hip rotation is unavailable because the fighter is running or walking forwards in the ordinary fashion, as opposed to moving forwards in a boxer's shuffle

I'm going to reference several clips from a Belfrot HL because he does this sort of thin a lot. Note: Journey Alert! Mute volume (unless yer a fan)

YouTube - vitor belfort "gold fighter"

1. 1:30-1:35, 1:51-1:53
2. 1:23-1:28
3. 2:52-2:55

Also compare 4:00-4:07 with the Tank clip above

There is a lot more footage to look at (Fedor and Chuck). I'll try to post the rest of the analysis tomorrow.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 2/25/2009 3:33pm

It would be interesting to find if the source of the power is actually all the same and the initiation is actually the only difference.

**G-Off** · Posted On: 2/25/2009 5:14pm

Good examples. Maybe I'm way off on this, but the shoulder rotation + square(ish) hips almost feels like chambered punching to me.

**Khun Kao** · Posted On: 2/25/2009 5:20pm

TTT for more!

**Sealknife** · Posted On: 2/25/2009 9:17pm

Originally Posted by G-Off

Good examples. Maybe I'm way off on this, but the shoulder rotation + square(ish) hips almost feels like chambered punching to me.

I have never thought about it like that, but I know what you mean and I agree. Good way to put it!

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 2/26/2009 7:35am

Why does this have to be a "different" way to generate power? I learned sanchin, chambered horse stance punching and boxing footwork and strikes all at the same time. The one thing my coach made sure we understood was that power generation is all the same. Each style stresses different aspects of the "power chain" more or less but the impulse and weight transfer theories are the same.

**8bit** · Posted On: 2/26/2009 7:57am

Originally Posted by WhiteShark

Why does this have to be a "different" way to generate power? I learned sanchin, chambered horse stance punching and boxing footwork and strikes all at the same time. The one thing my coach made sure we understood was that power generation is all the same. Each style stresses different aspects of the "power chain" more or less but the impulse and weight transfer theories are the same.

That's a pretty useful insight. What would you say are the aspects (or at very least, the main aspects) of the power chain?

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 2/26/2009 8:20am

Originally Posted by 8bit

That's a pretty useful insight. What would you say are the aspects (or at very least, the main aspects) of the power chain?

I just can't do it. Every time I've ever tried to write about this it turns into esoteric CMA hocus pocus. That is why I put "power chain" in quotes it is the only word I can think of and I HATE it.

Maybe if I can think of some way to say this that doesn't make it sound pseudo-scientific or too mystical I'll post what I mean later.

**8bit** · Posted On: 2/26/2009 8:51am

Originally Posted by WhiteShark

I just can't do it. Every time I've ever tried to write about this it turns into esoteric CMA hocus pocus. That is why I put "power chain" in quotes it is the only word I can think of and I HATE it.

Maybe if I can think of some way to say this that doesn't make it sound pseudo-scientific or too mystical I'll post what I mean later.

Maybe you can PM it to me then. I actually learn really easily from that kind of mysto-speak.

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 2/26/2009 9:01am

Originally Posted by WhiteShark

Why does this have to be a "different" way to generate power?

I actually said it was a different "pathway", meaning: same chain, different segment, just like snapping with the wrist is a part of the punching pathway that some use and others ignore.

I'll put up the rest of the vids and comments on my break.