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  1. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2009 5:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blugularis View Post
    Judo, Ji-Jutsu, same/same
    Care to explain the principle of "ji" for us?

    My points were: you're wrong on several counts.

    Maeda wasn't Kano's student (not directly, at the Kodokan he mainly studied under Tsunejiro Tomita).

    So not only did Kano not found BJJ, but his student didn't either. Nor his student's student. Now whether you credit Carlson or Helio for BJJ, the fact remains Kano is still several several steps removed from it.

    Pedantic maybe, but only because you're being an insufferable twat. Now shut the **** up please.

    Edit: Just like to add that I mean that in the friendliest possible manner. Perhaps a smiley would be in order?... ah **** it.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 7/18/2009 7:42pm at .
  2. TheLordHumungus is offline
    TheLordHumungus's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2009 12:58am


     Style: Wrestling, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blugularis View Post
    Judo, Ji-Jutsu, same/same, same throws, same locks, same chokes
    Kano developed it, Maeda carried it, Helio honed it, but still same/same
    :deadhorse
    Kano didn't hone it? Guess I should be in BJJ to get the polished diamond.
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2009 1:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blugularis View Post
    He fought a thousand challenge matches, not loosing a single match.
    YouTube - Public Enemy - Don't Believe The Hype: Edited Master

    Quote Originally Posted by blugularis View Post
    His Judo was adopted by the Brazilians and is now called Gracie Jiu-Jitsu."
    Nope. Judo is the #1 most popular martial art in Brazil. While many Brazilian Judo players have excellent Newaza due to crosstraining, Brazilian Jiu Jistsu (or Gracie Jiu Jitsu®) is an "also-ran" in Brazil.

    Quote Originally Posted by blugularis View Post
    Judo, Ji-Jutsu, same/same, same throws, same locks, same chokes
    Kano developed it, Maeda carried it, Helio honed it, but still same/same
    :deadhorse
    Nope. Of course, a high level Judoka, would be able quickly rattle off the difference between Judo and JuJutsu.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 7/19/2009 2:02am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. littlehazey is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 1:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Tsun, Silat Serak

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJJ is not polished Juijistu...just a different focus.... Just as judo is... why does no one understand this, they are the same art with just a different focus...BJJ focuses on Ground Game, Judo focuses on throws and take downs, and plai old Juijitsu is the more stand up oriented of both.

    BTW I agree with Kano being a badass
  5. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 12:15pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJJ and Judo are not at all "the same" as traditional Jujutsu. Case in point: Kano's bad-assery owes much to the fact that he was willing to differentiate from the traditional mindset.

    Even if all schools share techniques the methods of training and philosophy with which one approaches the arts are important distinctions, wouldn't you agree?
  6. littlehazey is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 5:25pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Tsun, Silat Serak

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    BJJ and Judo are not at all "the same" as traditional Jujutsu. Case in point: Kano's bad-assery owes much to the fact that he was willing to differentiate from the traditional mindset.

    Even if all schools share techniques the methods of training and philosophy with which one approaches the arts are important distinctions, wouldn't you agree?
    I will slightly recant my statement, I agree with the second part. The point I was trying to make is that if you study one, you don't necessarily have too "cross train" into another to feel better about your technique. If they all use the same techniques wouldn't it be safe to say that the need to know both Judo and BJJ is all a matter of focus on the players part? Not the style you've already invested time into.
  7. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 5:29pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not at all, that was an additional criticism of blugularis; I think we're both on the same page.
  8. blugularis is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 5:49pm


     Style: JuShinDo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    same/same

    Joko Ninomiya, studied from Ashihara, who studied from Mas Oyama, and yet, they all call it KARATE

    Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Ju-Jutsu, Ju-Jitsu, same/same grappling/ground work
    Maeda took Judo at the KodoKan, and took it to Brazil. Where it became BJJ, it is still JU Do/Jutsu, same/same, either way, :sniperdan
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Care to explain the principle of "ji" for us?

    My points were: you're wrong on several counts.

    Maeda wasn't Kano's student (not directly, at the Kodokan he mainly studied under Tsunejiro Tomita).

    So not only did Kano not found BJJ, but his student didn't either. Nor his student's student. Now whether you credit Carlson or Helio for BJJ, the fact remains Kano is still several several steps removed from it.

    Pedantic maybe, but only because you're being an insufferable twat. Now shut the **** up please.

    Edit: Just like to add that I mean that in the friendliest possible manner. Perhaps a smiley would be in order?... ah **** it.
  9. blugularis is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 5:55pm


     Style: JuShinDo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    who founded BJJ!?

    Everyone in the martial arts is now familiar with jujitsu. Thanks to the Ultimate Fighting Challenge, the Gracies, and others, jujitsu has rapidly grown into one of the most popular forms of martial arts. The word Brazilian has become synomous with the words Jiu-Jitsu. How did an art that formed in Japan manage to travel and become well established in a country on the other side of the world? There are many stories about how Brazilian Jujitsu was formed. Wallid Ismaail is quoted as saying, “A Japanese ambassador visited Brazil and spread his jujitsu knowledge to the Brazilians.” (Black Belt, 1999). As you will see, this is a rather simplistic explanation of the founding of Brazilian Jujitsu. This article will cover exactly how the art traveled from Japan to Brazil. But first, let’s look at the art’s origins.

    Many of the martial arts, are rather recent, having been formed during the last century.
    However, Jiu-Jitsu has a lengthy development and history. It appears that it is at least hundreds of years old, and perhaps as even 2000-years old. One of the first stories comes from the Koji-Ki (Record of Ancient Matters) in describing a dispute between two families over a peace of land. It seems to have been won with a Judo type throw (Mifune, K, 1956).

    “---while the latter or Tate-Minagata-no-Kami , appearing with a big stone on hand, said, ‘What are you? Stop trying to protest against our occupation of the land! Come on, let’s settle the matter by force.’ And he stepped towards Tate-Mikazuchi-no-Kami, who stood never shaken but firm. Tate-Mikazuchi-no-Kami then said, ‘Well, now I’ll show you what I can do’, catching Tate-Minagata-no-Kami quickly by the hand and thrown him down as if throwing a leaf of reed, and then Tate-Mikazuchi-no-Kami ran away.”(p. 19)

    We consider no-holds barred fighting as a “new” invention in the martial arts. However, one of the first no-holds barred competitions occurred during 23 BC. This was during the 7th year of the reign of the Emperor Suijin . There was a Tomaketsu-Hayato who performed a style or type wrestling. He was pitted against Nomi-no-Sokune by order of the Emperor. Although he was supposed to be the best wrestler of the era, Sokune defeated him and kicked him to death. Nomi-no-Sokune has been attributed as being the founder of judo/jujitsu, (Mifune, K, 1956).

    We also consider grappling as a modern era in the martial arts. However, such a craze has occurred before. According to the Judo-Higaku-sho (Important Records of Judo), “grapple was in vogue since Eisho era.”(Mifune, K, 1956). The Eisho era was from 1504 to 1520.
    Shigetaka Hitaka, in the Honcho-Bugei-Shoden (Breif History of Military Arts of Japan), refers to several forms of martial arts under a general heading. These arts are referred to as Kogusoku, which includes Tiajutsu, Taido, Jujutsu, Wajutsu, etc. Here it says, “Kogusoku was introduced long, long, ago and Takenouchi is now reknown for this feet of arms.” Takenouchi Chumutaku Hisamori was the founder of Yawara, known as the Takenouchi Branch. This was during the Tenmon era (1532 to 1554).
    A report of the founding of one of the first jujitsu schools occurred during the sixteenth century. This school was referred to as the Araki School. This school was was reported to be founded by Araki Muninsai. “Nobody knows where Araki Mininsai is from and little is known of his deeds, yet his excellent technique in arresting criminals is renowned.” However, another person may have founded it. One version is that it was founded by Fujiwara Katsumi, who may have been an imaginary person. This is further substantiated in List of Originators of Branches of Feats of Arms. Although it is not known exactly when it was formed, it is estimated to be during the Tensho era (1573-9) (Mifune, 1956).
    During the Edo period (1615-1868), Jujuitsu developed rapidly and a great many number of skilled fighters appeared. Many of these masters founded their own schools, several of them labeled with their own names. By then, there were fifty separate schools (Tomiki, 1961)
    There are several references to Jiu-Jitsu schools and styles with many original “founders” to which it was attributed. It is also purported that there is a Chinese influence during the eighteenth century. A Cheng Tsu U came to Edo, Japan, and taught three ronin (lordless) sumurai various techniques which they in turn utilized to develop jujitsu (Mifune, 1956)
    Jigaro Kano was born in 1860. He learned the Juijitsu of the Tenshin Shin-yo school and the Kito school (Tomiki, 1961). He started the first Kodokan, meaning literally "House of the Ancient Ways"(Wall, K.), in 1882. This was located in the precints of the Eishoji Temple, in Kita-Inari-cho, Shtayaku, Tokyo (Tomiki, 1961). The first training hall was a twelve-mat hall (216 square feet), with only nine students. Ten years later he renamed his style from Jiu-Jitsu to Judo. This was due to the bad reputation of Jiu-Jitsu that was occurring in the late eighteen hundreds. “Jujitsu in that period was coming into bad repute; experts having a habit of causing trouble in the bazaars and trying out their skill on innocent members of the public in the resulting riots.” (Domino. E., 1963, p. 11). (Random (1984)), also says, “Jujitsu did not enjoy a good reputation in view of the fact that all sorts of undesirable people practiced it at the expense of others. That is why Kano adopted the name judo.”
    However, the term Judo was not coined by Kano, and had been utilized before. “The term Judo was used as early as the Tokugawa period by the Jikishin Ryu” (Random, 1977). Jigaro Kano also refers to Judo as a sub-category of Jujitsu. (Mifune, 1956)
    “Training how to wring the neck, to twist the arm, or to kick or thrust is sometimes called Jujutsu, and the exercise of throwing only is, too, called Jujutsu, and on the other hand, body trick, atemi (body attack), vital spots attack, Judo, (italics added), Kogusoku, or grasping of arms, pugilism, blow by palm and other such terms are Jujutsu just the same.” (p. 22)
    Jigaro Kano primarily refers to Judo as “---body trick, or Judo generally means the training how to grapple with armors for throwing” (Mifune, 1956, p.22). Sensei Ray Neilson, used to quote Honda as saying, “all you are two things; speed, and a trick.” (personal communication, 1999).

    Jigaro Kano also changed Judo to make it less violent than Jiu-Jitsu. In his own words, “’Jujutsu Ryu, employed dangerous practices such as throwing by quite incorrect methods or by roughly applying torsion to the limbs.” (Random, 1984, p.239). So he also changed the methods as well as the name to soften it.

    He wanted to develop an art that was more than just physical combat. Mifune says, “So he desired to make it not only a feat of arms, but also a means to help physical and spiritual training to contribute most effectively in the cause of educational and cultural acquirements. He named his new style Judo.” He took Ju from Ju-Jitsu. Ju means suppleness, or the ability to give (give way), and is generally translated as gentleness. He changed the second character from Jitsu, which meant art, to Do. The character for Do means the way, or the path. Dr. Kano wanted Judo to be a path of gentleness for all to be able to learn. That is why he labeled it the “way of giving”, or the “way of giving way”.

    There is emphasis in Judo to try not to truly hurt your partner, “In friendly contests the more serious tricks of Jiu-Jitsu are not practiced with any intention of causing harm. Between Japanese students the tricks are practiced lightly and swiftly, yet with care not to cause the injuries that would result from a severe application of the work.” (Hancock & Higashi, 1935).

    In the same book there is an entire chapter entitled “Kuatsu, or the Restoration of Life”. This chapter is on how to bring people back from injuries or unconsciousness and claims to be useful in drowning or other accidents as well as with Judo. This shows how important it was to the early practitioners of Judo, to value life. However, later on the book states that “Our more serious tricks do kill, because they stop every vital process of life.” Although softened, Judo was still a serious martial art.

    Even thirty years after the founding of Judo, the terms were still considered to be synonymous and used interchangeably. Published in 1924 is a book entitled The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (Hancock & Higashi, 1935). It took years for the term Judo to take hold, and become separate from the earlier Ju-Jitsu.

    Aikido also evolved from Jujitsu, and there was a similar evolution. In observing an Aikido technique, it looked similar to a Ju-Jistsu technique. I mentioned this to the Sensei, and he said, “they are all the same.” (Jorge Valladares, perssonal communication, 2001)

    As Judo grew, it became taught around the world. President Roosevelt became interested and requested Judo to be taught at the White House. According to (), Jigaro Kano sent two emissaries, Jojiro Tomita and Mitsuyo Maeda, to the United States. Tomiki (1961) says that it was Yshiaki Yamashita, and then later Maeda. According to one version ()Tomita had a shoulder injury, so Maeda (a tough player) was sent along, to demonstrate while Tomita explained. However, a football player challenged them, at West Point. Tomita took up the challenge and was defeated and crushed under the football player’s bulk. Tomita went back to Japan. However, Maeda stayed, and got the backing of some Japanese businessmen who came up with a thousand dollars in prize money. Maeda then traveled around taking on all challengers. He fought a thousand challenge matches, not loosing a single match. He finally settled in Brazil. Here he called himself, Conte Comte (“Count Combat”). His Judo was adopted by the Brazilians and is now called Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

    So we see, the practitioners of Jiu-Jitsu, can thank Jigaro Kano for their art. Perhaps, as the no-holds barred matches become less popular, due to their roughness, Judo is again becaming popular as as a martial art. And it has been said that Jigaro Kano, once watched Morohei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, in action. He said, “that is the ultimate judo.” My current Aikido Sensei, Jorge Valladeres, says, when referring to Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido “it is all the same”. As we all travel the path of the martial arts, we learn that it is ultimately to improve our own attitudes towards our fellow man.

    References:

    Domino. E., 1963, Teach Yourself Judo, Emerson Books, Inc., Buchanan, New York.
    Hancock, H.I. & Higashi, K., 1935, The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu
    Hancock, H.I., 1904, Physical Training Jiu-Jitsu Combat Tricks, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, The Knickerbocker Press, New York.
    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/lewis/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    Stevens, J., (1995), Three Budo Masters, Kodansha America, Inc., 1995
    Mifune, K, (1961), Canon of Judo, Principle and Technique, Seibundo-Shinkosha Publishing Co., Ltd., Tokyo, Japan.
    Tomiki, K., (1961), Judo and Aikido, Kyodo Printing Co., Tokyo, Japan.
    Random, M., (1984), The Martial Way, Octupus Books Ltd., London.
    Wall, K., (retrieved 2003) from http://home.nc.rr.com/brotman/kodokan/ Lewis E. Galway, M.Ed., LPC, ives in Salt Lake City, Utah. He has studied over ten different martial arts for thirty years, primarily Kyokushin-kai, and Judo. He currently studies Judo and Ashihara karate. He refers to the combined style as Jushindo Karate Jutsu. He is particularly interested in the older Aiki-jujitsu arts, and Shorinji Kempo. He has a Master’s in Educational Psychology, and works as a counselor in addictions and domestic violence. :violent1:
  10. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 6:48pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blugularis View Post
    ...So we see, the practitioners of Jiu-Jitsu, can thank Jigaro Kano for their art. Perhaps, as the no-holds barred matches become less popular, due to their roughness, Judo is again becaming popular as as a martial art. And it has been said that Jigaro Kano, once watched Morohei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, in action. He said, “that is the ultimate judo.” My current Aikido Sensei, Jorge Valladeres, says, when referring to Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido “it is all the same”. As we all travel the path of the martial arts, we learn that it is ultimately to improve our own attitudes towards our fellow man.
    I don't disagree with the content of what you say but I think in the context of trying to evaluate the success of various martial arts it is necessary to examine the present day circumstances in which they exist. When the members of this website come through very supportive of things like Judo and BJJ and very critical of things like Aikido or really TMA in general despite the common ground they all share with one another it is because they identify discrepancies in the execution of the martial arts training and ideology/philosophy. It's the skill and the understanding and the intellectualism of a martial arts institution that marks a tremendously important difference we tend to associate with it's name.

    All of these schools exist in the same world of martial arts however they must be distinguished by their albeit often subtle alternations in approach. I can see how you might say that all martial arts schools are the same in that perhaps they all want to achieve similar things but they do have particular ideas about how to go about doing so that you so generously laid out for us.
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