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  1. Foolish is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 11:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    So this drill I've seen very widely practiced, in pretty much every sparring group i've been to. A lot of people seem to think that having it as the introduction to sparring is a good foundation, because it reinforces an essential skill (defanging the snake), is relatively safe, and lets the student focus on a single, well-defined goal.

    My problems

    1) People hand sparring increasingly look like playing tag, and abbreviate their movements in a way that tends to undermine body mechanics.
    2) It makes you a hand-hunter. Much like head-hunters in boxing, I find them ridiculously easy to counter. If I always know what your target is, it's very difficult for you to out-think me.
    3) You're praticing the hand-shots against a different energy than you would in a fight, where I would usually expect the hand shot to come most readily when countering a headshot. I'm not convinced you'll actually be all that great at hitting the hands come full sparring.
    4) It seems silly to work full resistance on a counter-hit before working resistance on the initial attack.
    We do a variation of this for beginners with head, hands, and knees. It seems to get people to think about targets at different levels. We haven't tried having people going for different targets but that sounds interesting.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2009 1:07am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that attacking the hands is more realistic in knife fighting compared to stick fighting, since the body mechanics of swinging a stick don't really apply, and the game of tag becomes a lot more damaging.
  3. Epa is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2009 11:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that attacking the hands is more realistic in knife fighting compared to stick fighting, since the body mechanics of swinging a stick don't really apply, and the game of tag becomes a lot more damaging.
    In that case, do you think hand sparring is a valid training method for sword as opposed to stick? When I've trained with Ilustrisimo players, they spend a lot of time hand sparring and they often think of the weapon as a sword. That seems like a valid training method to me because like you said a blade you can do a lot more damage and the smaller motions give you a major timing advantage.
  4. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2009 11:54am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even then, you need to be able to set up multiple targets. I do a sword style (pekiti, and I guess you'd count ARMA too), and I just find it very easy to thwart someone if I know they're a hand-hunter. Convincingly attacking other targets is I think a prerequisite of having an advanced defanging game(or at least an efficient way to develop it).

    Fundamentally, the two easist ways to set those shots up are
    1) draw your opponent into attacking another target
    2) Make your opponent think you're attacking something else.

    Both of which are very difficult to do if we're both only attacking the hands.
  5. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2009 11:42am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tend to have a simple approach- I go for the lead arm, lead leg and head of my opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Epa View Post
    In that case, do you think hand sparring is a valid training method for sword as opposed to stick? When I've trained with Ilustrisimo players, they spend a lot of time hand sparring and they often think of the weapon as a sword. That seems like a valid training method to me because like you said a blade you can do a lot more damage and the smaller motions give you a major timing advantage.
    I think this is hinted at when you notice that a guard is an important part of the sword from all different areas and time periods (katanas, rapiers, claymores etc). With a saber or similar weapon, short hand attacks can be done by turning the wrist. Having said that, my point is mostly that swords can damage hands pretty easilly, but selfcritical brings up really good points.
  6. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2009 11:55am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't want to disparage too much- the only person I know of who's actually been in an honest-to-god sword duel won due to taking hand(actually wrist) shots early and often.
  7. Gulogod is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2009 10:13pm


     Style: Suntukaran

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hand sparring is way better than doing a sayaw or numbered drills. Numbered drills make me want to sleep and sayaw is so gay. I find hand sparring with all sorts of people very enlightening since not all of them will follow the rule of just hitting the hand. Some may even up the ante when you break a finger or two.
  8. k_raben is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:58pm


     Style: Kali, Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What about the live hand?

    After a few classes I had the students hand sparring with soft sticks. The second group of students realized that they could also attack the live hand and after that we had people going for both hands. It changed it up as they then tried to find an opening where they could attack the far hand. Also, after getting hit a couple of times some of the students changed to their left hand. I think it also helped them understand keeping their live hand ready but close to the body.

    Aluminum knife sparring one night a guy had his live hand out and I tapped it with my knife. He looked at his hand, then me, then pulled his hand in and we kept going.
  9. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2009 2:43am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by k_raben View Post
    What about the live hand?
    Some tournaments really discourage attacking the live hand because it encourages attacking a rather unimportant target when in range. Personally in knife sparring I'll go for the live hand by zoning away from their weapon and clipping their live hand as I pivot away. I think it's a very valid target, because I think it's psychologically harder to deliver lethal attacks than some people imagine, and even in a serious situation you might be hesitant to go for the neck or abdomen. It also teaches your training partner to be aware of his hand. Oh, and it's a good target on people who learned that "commando knife fighting" stance with the left lead and forearm up in a vertical or horizontal position as a shield.
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    I don't want to disparage too much- the only person I know of who's actually been in an honest-to-god sword duel won due to taking hand(actually wrist) shots early and often.
    Care to tell us this story?
  10. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2009 2:50am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll PM it to you tomorrow. I'm a little drowsy at the moment.
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