Posted On:4/25/2009 10:12am
Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA
Iíve seen a lot of modern boxers keeping their power hand high & putting their lead hand down to protect the body. At the gym where I train the coaches use a lot of the Crazy Monkey material, keeping both hands up in a high guard. It works very well & is not overly attribute based. I have no practical reason to complain about it BUT one of my interests is Historical European Martial Arts & from what Iíve read it appears that the medieval fighting stance was like the boxing guard with the low lead. I am, therefore, interested in trying to understand the nuances of that guard/stance.
Any notes, tips, or suggestions of resources (threads, books, videos, etc.) would be appreciated.
Posted On:4/25/2009 11:14am
Style: No gym currently.
Sir, might I interest you in this? Our very own WMA forum, where you might find such treats as this.
There are also posts by No BS Martial Arts - View Profile: lklawson@@AMEPARAM@@View Profile: lklawson</title>@@AMEPARAM@@lklawson.
If you search his previous posts, gems such as this are perhaps to your interest. Lively discussion.
You may also like to check out here for more awesome uber-goodness.
Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
Posted On:4/25/2009 11:39am
Thank you, I am familiar with the WMA forum & the pugilism threads there. The reason I did not post there is becuase, if you examine the stance used in pre-queensbury boxing, it does not resemble the modern boxing stance & the unarmed stance I've seen advocated in Medieval texts does resemble the modern boxing stance. I therefore would very much like the opinion of those who use that particular guard.
Posted On:5/03/2009 5:50pm
The low lead handed guard, sometimes called the "philly shell", isn't really "the" boxing guard. It is usually reserved for guys with exceptional reflexes, and is primarily a counter-punching style. This style of guard does not obstruct your vision at all and plays well with a lot of slips and head movement, and the choice counter is the rolling the lead shoulder to absorb your opponent's right hand while cocking your core's rotation for a right hand of your own.
B-hop, James Toney, and Floyd Mayweather are three good examples of elite-level boxers who are pulling this off with good success.
The traditional high-guard (though not quite Crazy-Monkey-high) is still much more popular, though.
I wrote up a long post about taking apart an opponent who uses this style awhile ago, and I could post that if you would like.
Posted On:5/03/2009 8:59pm
Any information would be great! I'd almost given up hope of getting info from this thread. Thanks for posting.
Posted On:5/04/2009 10:53am
disclaimer: I wrote this a long time ago and haven't had the time to edit it for clarity or even proof of concept (in terms of what I've learned since then - at the time I was an Open divison amateur with roughly 20 fights under my belt, and at the time these were the strategies I developped through experience and application - I just haven't proof-read it and double-checked that I've changed my mind on anything, but I'd imagine if I did it would only be minor tweaks).
"Rory, one of my trainers, uses this style very effectively so I have some experience with it, and though I don't practice it myself, this is just what I've observed and found worked for him in sparring and worked against him when I'm in the ring with him.
Just want to say that most guys shouldn't even consider this style, while James Toney and Mayweather have had huge success with it (and De La Hoya even toys with it sometimes), those guys are the elite of the boxing world. This may not be too coherent as I'm just typing off of the top of my head and whatever goes into this post is just what popped into my thoughts at the time. Okay, here goes...
Philly Shell/ Shoulder roll
basic things to note:
- Left hand held just above the waist, around stomach-height, held across the midsection (sometimes held at 90 degrees but not always) so that your left fist is nearly touching your right elbow
- right hand held high, you should be easily able to hold your chin between your thumb and pointer finger. Your elbow should be a couple of inches from the right of your belly button and very tight to your body
- Bury your chin in your left shoulder and roll it slightly forward
- your stance should be very "Sideways" (for boxers this is the norm but MMA guys may not be familiar with it so much - not saying you should use this in MMA of course hah), and you should carry your back foot somewhat in the bucket (slightly sideways)
- Very mobile stance, keep a "thumbtack under your heels" (i.e. don't plant your feet but you're not exactly on your toes either, there should be enough room for a thumbtack to fit under there). That isn't to say this style is restricted to outside fighting, James Toney makes great use of it on the inside, but it is primarily a defensive/counter-punching style and movement/footwork are both integral to good defense
- Keep your head in line or slightly outside of your opponent's left shoulder to further frustrate their attempts to establish the right hand when you're in close. This also works to put "pressure without punching" on your opponent, which will make them feel obligated to punch at such a close range. With your head outside of their left shoulders, slipping the jab is a small, easy movement, and their right hand is often not a viable shot in this position, so you're relatively safe. Still, being so close to them, they'll often feel obligated to throw leather (even in a less-than-ideal position like the one they're now in) which means more countering opportunities as they over-reach and get frustrated
some benefits I've noted with my limited experience with this style:
- jabbing from the waist (well not quite but it's from way down low) is very sneaky and will often catch your opponent and throw him off as it is a punch coming from below his field of vision. The punch you don't see is the one that hurts you, so a stiff jab can do some damage here as well as score consistently
- Left arm, being held so low, acts as an effective "shield" against body attacks (i.e. any efforts to hit that spleen as was discussed recently in another thread)
- inside fighting makes their body accessible to your short left hook. It won't be an overly powerful punch because you'll be somewhat crowded, but a) you'll score and b) body punches are about PLACEMENT not power, so don't think it won't hurt 'em. If you can create distance well with your left shoulder in addition to your "body shield" low-left, combined with effective use of the shoulder roll, it means you have little to worry about from their right side at all (where your left hook will be digging) other than the uppercut
- very solid defense if you can manage the shoulder roll, advanced head movement and right hand parry (however, often the shoulder roll will leave the punch glancing off of the crown of your head. It won't hurt, but it MAY score. Some of the advanced head movement tricks i.e. turn your turn away from a punch to move your chin out of range actually make the punch look more damaging that it is so be mindful that you will be undamaged physically, but it may hurt you in the judges eyes)
- big countering opportunities. The shoulder roll defense is used best to defend your opponent's cross and then twisting back with a right hand of your own (or an uppercut if you're in close) followed by a left hook to the body (as their right hand may be slow coming back, you could hit the liver and freeze them)
possible weaknesses to exploit (stuff that I've found that works when faced with these guys):
- If faced with this style, work their left shoulder HARD. Slam hooks and stiff jabs into the meat of their shoulder (doubling up from shoulder/head works nicely for either punch), being mindful of their right hand (turn your punches over fully to force your shoulder up to cover your chin against the cross). Try to keep outsider of their left shoulder (they'll be trying to same so it can end up you two jockeying for that sweet spot) so that it is aligned with your own left hand. This puts their "sneaky" low left in plain sight, right infront of you, forcing it to be your focus (considering the right hand is now less of a problem because you're so far to their left side) so you won't get caught and suprised by it. If you want to throw a right hand, that's fine and definitely does it's damage, just be wary of their shoulder roll/right hand counter - it's their bread and butter.
Eventually after a round or two of concentrating blows on that left shoulder, you'll "numb" their shoulder and blunt it's effectiveness, possibly even totally shutting out their jab and hook.
On top of this, though, you're also consistently working a "stop hit" or shoulder check against them. They can't use that arm is your fist is thumping against it. Even if your not doing damage enough to affect their shoulder, you ARE physically blocking them from using their jab and hook each time you make contact with it.
When you're working their shoulder, you aren't scoring, so these need to be power punches or they'se just a waste of your time/effort. Your goal here is DAMAGE, not points
- Use a consistent jab to occupy their right hand. They may not be as quick countering your jab with their left because it has to travel further than normal, so exploit that. Just watch out for the right hand parry/straight right hand counter. Mix in feints and hooks off of the jab to overload their right hand's workload and you'll land with some regularity
- Target the body often and with BAD INTENTIONS. Dig the straight right to the body lots! You'll either hit their body (awesome), or worst case scenario is that you'll whack their low left arm, which only helps build up the damage you're trying to do and slow them down even more
- counter their jab with your right hand. It's a bit toughter to roll their shoulder to absorb the right hand when they're retracting the jab with the same arm, not to mention the right hand parry/straight right hand is a great often unexpected parry in itself
All I can think of for now hope some of this is helpful and makes sense "
Last edited by MacRea; 5/04/2009 11:12am at .
Posted On:5/04/2009 7:11pm
Style: ex-wrestling, boxing newb
Cool thread. Interesting read MacRea.
Posted On:5/06/2009 5:39pm
Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff
I think that last post warrants moving this to the advanced striking forum.
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