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  1. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2009 3:52pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Daggerfighting

    Recently I've started taking an interest in our smaller bladed friends.

    I know very well many masters included dagger work, Fiore included (which I intend to study), but I was also wondering if there's anything in WMA that deals with medium sized knives- 15-20cm in length, like for example the Fairburn-sykes combat knife.

    Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/03/2009 5:04pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    The closest thing I can think of would be some of the 19th century French, Italian and Spanish knife styles. Of these, I think that only the Spanish method has an entire book devoted to it: http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Barater.../dp/1581604718 .
  3. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2009 5:45pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The closest thing I can think of would be some of the 19th century French, Italian and Spanish knife styles. Of these, I think that only the Spanish method has an entire book devoted to it: http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Barater.../dp/1581604718 .
    Thank you! That is invaluable. I'll see if I can secure it off the net immediately.

    Again, thank you very much. Fits the bill just fine.
  4. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2009 6:44pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    [quote=odysseus_dallas;2116535]Recently I've started taking an interest in our smaller bladed friends.

    I know very well many masters included dagger work, Fiore included (which I intend to study), but I was also wondering if there's anything in WMA that deals with medium sized knives- 15-20cm in length, like for example the Fairburn-sykes combat knife.

    Any help would be appreciated, thanks.[/quote
    ]
    you have dagger/dolch works
    in meyer both editions (1575 &1600)
    paulus hector mair

    it is in Von dantzig/goliath (lignitzer dagger).
    and of course in the different talhoffer

    you have in armor in
    the codex 11093 (aka codex vindbonensis)
    Hans Czynner (MS. 963 – Über die Fechtkunst und den Ringkampf)
    and the Gladiatoria.


    that being said it is the blade that is goind to be 15-20 cm

    phil
  5. Tyrsmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2009 9:42pm


     Style: Fiore

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    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    I know very well many masters included dagger work, Fiore included (which I intend to study),.
    Try to get Colin Richard's Book it includes the abrazare and daga sections.
    It makes understanding Fiore's Dagger easier. If I remember correctly you can get it from Chivalry Bookshelf or you can try Purpleheart Armoury. They're selling it with a rondel waster.

    I got mine a year back it's good book.
  6. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2009 12:38pm


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Hm... I guess it might be a good idea to clear up the difference between a knife and a medieval dagger here. Just to prevent silly accidents. :-)

    I guess everyone already knows what a knife looks like. The main difference between that and what Hans Talhoffer or Johannes Liechtenauer would have deemed a dagger, is that the dagger of that time has no sharpened edge. Its basically like a big icepick.

    The sturdy (and very pointy) point is good for piercing armor, but you could not cut a boiled egg with one of those.

    Thats also why the old "Fechtmeister" thaught people techniques where you actually hold the blade of your dagger with the hand. Don't try this at home with mothers kitchen-knifes kids.

    Just thought I would throw that in. :-)
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2009 1:17pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Despite the thread title, the OP referred to the Fairbairn-Sykes knife by way of example and mentioned that he was already aware of Fiore dei Liberi's "arte della daga", etc. Personally, I assumed that he was looking for a WMA system for a shorter-bladed weapon than the rondel-style dagger.
  8. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2009 2:15pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hello
    Yes and now you know why Darth Vader lost his hand he tried to do half-swording with a light sabre. (Sorry I know it is poor)

    The old Germen seems to make the difference between
    Degen and dolch
    Degen= witch seems to have been a thrust only implement. With no or only little edge
    Dolch seems to be a latter term and covers weapon that can cut and trust
    The Bowie types are really covered by the term Messer.

    To make things easier all the vast majority of the medieval dagger I have seen and handled had edges. About the size, they really came in all sort ranging from 15 to 40 cm blade lengh. I would guess that 25-27 being the “average”. But we do not have really any way to know

    As far as holding a Sharpe blade in your hand, well as long as the edge does not slide, you will be fine.
    It is not a light sabre; to get cut you need either a slicing motion, or extra weight put on.
    In the fencing without amour you will grab your own sword by the blade. So there is a time and a place for it but I would make sure he can not move the arm holding the dagger soon when doing it
    phil
    Last edited by willaume; 5/04/2009 2:47pm at .
  9. RoninPimp is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2009 2:43pm

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     Style: Rex Kwon Do

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    Buy "Cold Steel" by Styers.
  10. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2009 2:55pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Despite the thread title, the OP referred to the Fairbairn-Sykes knife by way of example and mentioned that he was already aware of Fiore dei Liberi's "arte della daga", etc. Personally, I assumed that he was looking for a WMA system for a shorter-bladed weapon than the rondel-style dagger.
    Hello
    Your comment made me check the length of the ka-bar and the FS. that was what i understood as well :-)

    I would have though the "modern" combat knives would fall at the lower end of the dagger

    The FS combat knife as a blade between 16-19cm for a total lengh under 28-30 cm
    (20cm and 32 cm for the “cold war” version)
    The Ka-bar is slightly less than 30 cm and the blade is about 18cm.

    Here is a sample of historical dagger. (I was not aware of the 50 cm long ones was that common in the UK.)
    http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_rondel.html

    Phil
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