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  1. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 7:26pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    I think that getting a base in a system is smart advice. Until you have a solid foundation in one art, there is no real sense in attempting to branch out to other arts. That leads to someone who is a jack of all trades. This is good for MMA (arguably... note the Demarques Johnson fight... he got ruined by a bjj black belt BECAUSE he is only a journeyman grappler and not a master of any one skillset), not so good for self-defense.

    I'll agree with this, but MR. Fooey said something on the lines of (paraphrasing here) "don't train other styles, just stick to one for 10 + years that's all you need".

    This is not reasonable for one to become a competent fighter in all ranges, but if that is not your goal, then fine. Yes. it is good to stick with one art that teaches one aspect/range of fighting, but in at least 3-4 years you should be able to become really good at it, maybe not black belt, but near mastery of the basics. With that it is reasonable and vital to learn other ranges of fighting to compliment what you know/ are really proficient at.

    We can argue training methodologies all day long, and most TMAs have poor ones. That is beside the point, I think HKF wanted to emphasize the importance of truly understanding a system before simply discarding it.
    This is the entire point!

    It should not take you 10 plus years to understand one syle to determine whether or not it's training methods/techniques are sound; that should take less than a month if you know how to properly dissect it. I would reccomend Matt Thornton's aliveness videos for refernces to proper training/techniques. Anyone that has a brain thinks about it can unerstand what he says in them, is factual and logical.

    What I had a problem with, as I believe 1point2 did, was that he was saying that all styles were good and none were bad. As I have said, this is not the case.


    I have seen too many guys quit kenpo at blue belt to argue that it sucks [because THEY never fully understood the system. That lends to anything but a fair critique of the art.

    If they made it to blue in the system (which is a few years of training in it ,correct?), then they should by all means have the ability to determine whether or not the art is good/bad, that is as long as they are reasonable people ans understand proper fighting concepts (Matt Thornton videos, hint hint).

    You do not, DO NOT, have to master an art to make a proper critique of it, as you seem to be implying. Logical thinking skills is what you use, along with the understanding of whatever principles that apply to the matter at hand.

    My thinking skills and understanding of basic fighting principles is what made me decide to leave TKD. After six and a half years of doing it, all I had to do was think about it, and now I am moving on to other stuff like judo.


    Sincerely,

    ZoA.


    P.S.: It's been a while since I had a good disscussion. Awaiting your response.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    — Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    — Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  2. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 7:43pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HongkongFooie View Post
    Thx for taking the time to understand what I am saying. There are many styles that are good for self defense, the key is hard work and practice.
    Unfortunately, this does not apply to all arts, but just the ones that teach properly. Kicking an punching the air all day long in ridiculous kata with serious intent is just wasted effort in my opinion.

    I am not trying to say that every school is good (we all know about the various McDojos) but most styles have a core of good solid techniques that will work very well against the average untrained street fighter.

    The problem again is that so many of them teach them improperly. For instance: In boxing you learn how to punch, and in karate schools you learn how to punch. Yes, you will learn similar punching techniques and there is some overlap (I use the term, "techniques" and, "overlap" loosely here).

    The big difference is how they are taught. Note in boxing you are taught a punch the same way you use it in a fight, but in many karate schools, because of the TMA aspect that is largely in place, you learn to punch differently in kata/one-steps/static drilling, then you do in your karate tournaments/sparring. This can end up giving you bad habits on top of confusing you; why not punch in drills and kata the same way you would in a fight?

    Here is the problem I have with your stance on the matter: you think most arts have solid foundations and teach proper methods, in spite of whether or not there are good or bad schools. If most schools are as you say, then why would this site be here? (we call out fakes and bad training methods)

    The sad fact is many schools do not teach correctly/are not founded in reality, and people can get hurt if they try to defend themselves, so your statements are not true, because you cannot back them up. The evidence points otherwise.


    Sincerely,

    ZoA.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    — Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    — Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  3. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 10:05pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HongkongFooie View Post
    Thx for taking the time to understand what I am saying. There are many styles that are good for self defense, the key is hard work and practice. I am not trying to say that every school is good (we all know about the various McDojos) but most styles have a core of good solid techniques that will work very well against the average untrained street fighter.
    No problem. I generally agree with what you are saying, though, I know most on this site will lampoon you for daring to utter such blasphemies.
  4. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 10:23pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    No problem. I generally agree with what you are saying, though, I know most on this site will lampoon you for daring to utter such blasphemies.
    Excuse me, but did you just ignore my rebuttal? If you can't back up his or your claims on this issue, then don't post about it here. We are not lampooning him (though many do this, I tend to be forgiving to noobs), but just pointing out how he is making wild claims and not backing them up reasonably.

    This is why so many arts get flack around here: They don't teach in a way that improves ones self-defense effectively! It might feel good to think that all arts are all great, but in reality many of them can and will brainwash you, and/or teach you techniques that will get you seriously hurt or killed in real life.

    The one real problem I have with this, and his statements is that they sound very naive, and feel as if they don't have a clue about proper training/mindsets in the martial arts. I personally don't disregard an art until I see it for myself, whether it be on the mat, or through video, and can use my critical and logical thinking skills to assess it. You and him, on the other hand, seem to be too trustworthy when it comes to other arts claims of "teh deadly". Again, I don't discount an art until I see it for myself, but I always remain skeptical. That is the key to not being taken in by frauds.

    And please, respond to my rebuttal. If not, I can only assume you are ignoring me. Either that, or you don't have anything to say, or that I am right on the issue.


    ZoA.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    — Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    — Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  5. HongkongFooie is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 10:38pm

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     Style: Kenpo Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, first off, I'm sorry you wasted 6 years in TKD, don't take out your bad decisions out on me. Second, you mentioned that a blue belt should be a good rank in American Kenpo to decide if the style is legit but you are wrong. That is exactly the point in American Kenpo when, hopefully, a student leaves the mechanical stage and begins to find his/her own way. It is also the stage that is the most challenging and difficult. Most students tough it through for a bit and give up around green cause thay can't make it over the hump. This is usually when someone will want to try CMA or maybe BJJ. They get to start over, they have some martial art training and so they do very well as a beginner, they might feel good about themselves, but they never really learned Kenpo.

    Kenpo works, but does the student? The sad part is that we often blame the instructor or the school at this point but we should remember that they are guildes, the student has to "find" the Way.
  6. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 11:05pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HongkongFooie View Post
    Ok, first off, I'm sorry you wasted 6 years in TKD, don't take out your bad decisions out on me.
    I'm not. I am just trying to make you understand that not all arts have proper foundations, and that you cannot take them on their word. Think of it as me trying to make sure that you do not fall under the same trap.

    Actually, TKD is what got me interested in the martial arts, so I have respect and thanks for it, but I am moving on since there is just so much bullshido in it.

    Second, you mentioned that a blue belt should be a good rank in American Kenpo to decide if the style is legit but you are wrong.
    If it takes more than a year to get blue in that system, or in any functional art for that matter, than that is enough time to make a rational decision about it. Note that giving up on an art because it is hard is not the same as giving up on it because you are learning unrealistic techniques/training.

    I could tell after my first randori in judo, that almost none of the prior training I did helped me. With reason, you should be able to ascertain whether or not arts are good or bad. Unfortunately, most TMAers do not use their reason, and get caught in the trap of accepting all arts as good.

    Now, I am not saying that your art is bad, but take a step back and use you critical thinking skills and really ask yourself the hard questions.

    This should help you understand where I come from:

    Matt Thornton: Words of Wisdom. A.K.A How to Train Martial Arts - No BS Martial Arts

    That is exactly the point in American Kenpo when, hopefully, a student leaves the mechanical stage and begins to find his/her own way. It is also the stage that is the most challenging and difficult.

    Most students tough it through for a bit and give up around green cause thay can't make it over the hump. This is usually when someone will want to try CMA or maybe BJJ. They get to start over, they have some martial art training and so they do very well as a beginner, they might feel good about themselves, but they never really learned Kenpo.
    Like I said above; it's either they quit because they think it's too hard, or that it is not realistic and they used their brain to quit bullshido. There is a differecne between the two. Do not get them mixed up.

    Have you ever asked yourself if they left because they tried those other arts and found them to be more effective? Just something to digest. It would make sense then, that they would not waste their time learning a crap art, and more wisely spend their time doing something more productive for their bodies, minds, and time. Maybe there was a valid reason they decided not to, "never really learn Kenpo".

    Think about it.

    Kenpo works, but does the student? The sad part is that we often blame the instructor or the school at this point but we should remember that they are guildes, the student has to "find" the Way.
    I will agree that the student has to find their own way, but if the art itself they learn is not realistic, then their hard work is wasted if that is their intent, as it seems for most potential martial artists. Besides, just beacuse you say it works doesn't make it true. You need to prove it, and the best way is with sparring with hard contact.


    And I'll leave it at that for now.


    ZoA.
    Last edited by ZenOfAnger; 7/02/2009 11:11pm at .
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    — Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    — Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  7. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2009 1:10am


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenOfAnger View Post
    If they made it to blue in the system (which is a few years of training in it ,correct?), then they should by all means have the ability to determine whether or not the art is good/bad, that is as long as they are reasonable people ans understand proper fighting concepts (Matt Thornton videos, hint hint).

    You do not, DO NOT, have to master an art to make a proper critique of it, as you seem to be implying. Logical thinking skills is what you use, along with the understanding of whatever principles that apply to the matter at hand.

    My thinking skills and understanding of basic fighting principles is what made me decide to leave TKD. After six and a half years of doing it, all I had to do was think about it, and now I am moving on to other stuff like judo.


    Sincerely,

    ZoA.


    P.S.: It's been a while since I had a good disscussion. Awaiting your response.
    Matt Thornton's videos are heavily stilted towards competitive sports. I agree with most of what he says. However, much of his advice applies to elite level competitors or those who want to be strong competitors. What I mean by that is: to be successful in competition, you must train alive. Stated a different way: Unless you train alive, you will not be successful in competition. Aliveness is a necessary condition... for fighting other trained fighters in competition. I don't see aliveness as a necessary condition for success in all self defense arts. It is BETTER if one trains with aliveness. In fact, if you take two fighter, one who trains with aliveness and one who does not, the alive fighter will almost always win. Yet, I have seen people train in dead arts and still defend themselves. Not everyone is destined or interested in becoming a trained fighter or defeating other trained fighters in competition.

    Personally, I add aliveness to my training because I believe in it. However, it is not a necessary condition for proper self defense. When 1/3 of my training consisted of dead forms and sets, I still held my own against boxers and kickboxers who trained with more aliveness. Why? Well, one reason was that my instructor instilled a love for hard sparring early on in my kenpo training. I also came into kenpo with some boxing experience. I used my art, despite training many dead patterns, in fighting and self-defense scenarios. I have seen others do the same. So, I take what Matt Thornton says with a grain of salt. He is a competitor and an elite athlete. He trains elite competitors. So, to defeat guys like that, aliveness would be an absolute necessity. For a single mom to fight off the mugger at the grocery store is aliveness an absolute? I'm not so sure.

    I separate the training methodologies from the art. Kenpo's training methodologies are not as sound as I would prefer them to be (i.e. forms and sets, lack of padwork, compliant self-defense technique training), but one can add elements of aliveness to the art and preserve the fundamental techniques of the art.

    If a wing chun guy does hard sparring against fighters from several styles, padwork, drills, and sound conditioning, I don't think that he will be unable to defend himself... even though I don't care much for his style. I have no use for wing chun, but I think wing chun practitioners can engage in alive training. Will they beat boxers or kickboxers? Probably not. Can they defend themselves? Sure.

    Where we will agree is that it is BETTER to train alive than to train dead and that it is BETTER to train in arts with a proven track record of competitive victories. Is this an absolute? I don't personally believe so. My actions tend to betray my words on this matter, though, because I do train at an MMA gym in Judo and BJJ. I chose to do that to fill in gaps in my training left vacant by kenpo.

    Are all styles created equal? No! Can any style be adapted into a good fighting system? Maybe... there are too many arts to discuss individually. Are Boxing, MT, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Kyokushinkai, Wrestling combat proven systems? Yes. Are they the only systems worth studying? No. I have personally witnessed 135 lb. women use kenpo to defend themselves against very large men. Is that same woman going to enter a cage and beat a trained fighter? No! Would the same woman be better off if she trained another art? I can't answer that... and neither can anyone else.

    Conclusion: there are many different goals for training martial arts. Self-defense is different from fighting in a cage or competition. Some people have no desire to compete and just want to train for the one or two fights they are likely to encouter in their life... and not to win a trophy or a medal, or even to defeat the attacker, but just to come home alive. If so, then who am I to tell them what they are doing is wrong? Matt Thornton's videos are geared toward competitors. In that context he is right. His advice is not universal, in my opinion.
  8. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2009 1:18am


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenOfAnger View Post
    This is not reasonable for one to become a competent fighter in all ranges, but if that is not your goal, then fine. Yes. it is good to stick with one art that teaches one aspect/range of fighting, but in at least 3-4 years you should be able to become really good at it, maybe not black belt, but near mastery of the basics. With that it is reasonable and vital to learn other ranges of fighting to compliment what you know/ are really proficient at.
    After three years of kenpo, even under a great instructor, you are barely scratching the surface of the art. It takes 5-6 years to really understand the techniques. You might be able to cut that time down to 4 years with a good instructor who is willing to share the information.

    Kenpo is long study because it is technical. There are catalysts to each attack. You have to learn when to apply the techniques, not just how to do them. In that way, it's similar to Judo. You can learn to fight in 6 months, but it will resemble kickboxking. If you want to use kenpo self-defense techniques in combat situations, you really need more time to understand the art. I am hoping that some drills that I have crafted will cut that time in half. I have yet to find a student to test them out on yet, though. It is just a very technical art. There is alot to learn.

    Take BJJ, for instance. You can be a decent grappler after a year. However, you are nothing to write home about. It takes a good 5-6 years to become a good submission grappler. It takes 7-10 years of dedicated study to become a black belt. Don't tell me that BJJ practitioners are proficient at grappling in 1 year! This is only true if they are grappling against someone who knows nothing at all. Kenpo is similar. After six months to a year of training, a good kenpoist should be able to defend himself against untrained fighters or poorly trained fighters. To use kenpo against a trained fighter, it takes longer. To use BJJ against a world champion wrestler, it will probably take more than six months or a year of training. Why would anyone expect more from kenpo?
  9. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2009 2:13am


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    Matt Thornton's videos are heavily stilted towards competitive sports.
    Yes, and...?

    I agree with most of what he says.
    and?

    However, much of his advice applies to elite level competitors or those who want to be strong competitors.What I mean by that is: to be successful in competition, you must train alive. Stated a different way: Unless you train alive, you will not be successful in competition.
    Flat out wrong. Aliveness should be used by anyone who wants to compete, and/or learn proper self-defense. How can you use your techniques if you have never used them full-force in the ring, or in the dojo?

    Static training does little to help you in self-defense situation. Learning to adapt to a fight, whether sport or self defense, can only be learned through sparring, and sparring hard. Just knowing a technique is not enough. You have to know how to use it in a real fight, and the only way to do this is to fight. No exceptions.

    Aliveness is a necessary condition... for fighting other trained fighters in competition.
    Wrong again. Someone trained properly (aliveness), will dominate
    any untrained attacker, as well as in competition. The way combat sports came into reality was in order to insure people could defend themselves without fear of death/serious injury, and to put their techniques to the test against a real opponent.

    I must ask you. How can you say that you have self-defense skills if you don't spar or compete with them? You fighting skill is nothing but conjecture with no value in reality. You must, must, put them to the test in sparring/competition.

    I don't see aliveness as a necessary condition for success in all self defense arts. It is BETTER if one trains with aliveness. In fact, if you take two fighter, one who trains with aliveness and one who does not, the alive fighter will almost always win.
    And with the above quote I can tell you do not fully understand the concept; Aliveness is everything when it comes to proper training in any art that claims to teach proper self defense or sport. You know why the alive fighters win? Because they train the right way. That is all there is to it.

    Yet, I have seen people train in dead arts and still defend themselves. Not everyone is destined or interested in becoming a trained fighter or defeating other trained fighters in competition.
    Again, If you even want to think of defeating an opponent in the street or ring, aliveness needs to prevail. You claim people train in dead arts, and you think that is the reason they can defend themselves? You have got to be kidding. It is more likely that they are just really fit, have prior training in aliveness, or got lucky.

    Their technique has nothing to do with it in that case, because they have no technique to speak of in a realistic sense. Training dead arts only gets you better at doing dead arts. Do I need to reiterate?

    Personally, I add aliveness to my training because I believe in it. However, it is not a necessary condition for proper self defense.
    If it is not necessary to your training, then why do it? I think that deep down, you know that without the alive training you do, you would not survivie in the ring or the street, but just have a hard time letting go of what you have put so much into. A word of advice is to let go of the past training that is dead and static. It wont help you, and can make you worse.

    When 1/3 of my training consisted of dead forms and sets, I still held my own against boxers and kickboxers who trained with more aliveness. Why? Well, one reason was that my instructor instilled a love for hard sparring early on in my kenpo training. I also came into kenpo with some boxing experience.
    That right there is all I needed to hear to affirm my above thought. Without your hard sparring and boxing experience, plus your lack of understanding of the aliveness principle, you would be toast in self defense, and in the ring. Sure, you may have gotten off a kenpo trick or two when sparring, but I can almost assure you that would not be the case without the hard sparring/boxing.

    Face it. The only reason you can fight is because of the alive training. Your kenpo had little to do with it, but you still insist with it because you don't want to admit that your time and energy spent in it amounts to little realistic skill. JUst be reasonable about it and realize why it's sor hard to let go of old training methods; because though deep down you know it amounts to little, you still want to hold onto fond memories.

    It's ok, I understand.

    I used my art, despite training many dead patterns, in fighting and self-defense scenarios. I have seen others do the same. So, I take what Matt Thornton says with a grain of salt. He is a competitor and an elite athlete. He trains elite competitors. So, to defeat guys like that, aliveness would be an absolute necessity. For a single mom to fight off the mugger at the grocery store is aliveness an absolute? I'm not so sure.
    See above.

    I separate the training methodologies from the art.
    See Matt Thornton's video on youtube called, The Art?
    The art in martial arts has always reffered to the ability to fight with a great amount of skill. Some forget this and put twists on it, but it does not change the fact that without aliveness, there is no martial in martial arts and losses it meaning quickly without it.

    Kenpo's training methodologies are not as sound as I would prefer them to be (i.e. forms and sets, lack of padwork, compliant self-defense technique training), but one can add elements of aliveness to the art and preserve the fundamental techniques of the art.
    I sense this as your way of trying to say a lot of what you learn in kenpo sucks, but you keep doing it, beacuse you can't find it in yourself to stop, so you train hard and equate this to your kenpo. Stop deluding yourself, and be honest. Why train this way when you could enjoy a much better, more effective art?

    If a wing chun guy does hard sparring against fighters from several styles, padwork, drills, and sound conditioning, I don't think that he will be unable to defend himself... even though I don't care much for his style. I have no use for wing chun, but I think wing chun practitioners can engage in alive training. Will they beat boxers or kickboxers? Probably not. Can they defend themselves? Sure.
    Note that when chunners do this, almost all of their Chi Sau and what not goes out the window, and resort to bad boxing/wrestling. Why not train in those arts instead, and save yourself from the bad habits and sloppyness fostered by WC? Again to just show what happens when you do not understand fully what aliveness means.

    Where we will agree is that it is BETTER to train alive than to train dead and that it is BETTER to train in arts with a proven track record of competitive victories. Is this an absolute? I don't personally believe so. My actions tend to betray my words on this matter, though, because I do train at an MMA gym in Judo and BJJ. I chose to do that to fill in gaps in my training left vacant by kenpo.
    Again. It seems you are having more trouble letting go of kenpo, than actually using kenpo. The reason you can fight is because of the judo and BJJ you do. Realize this, and you will be better off and feel better about yourself.

    Are all styles created equal? No! Can any style be adapted into a good fighting system? Maybe... there are too many arts to discuss individually. Are Boxing, MT, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Kyokushinkai, Wrestling combat proven systems? Yes. Are they the only systems worth studying? No. I have personally witnessed 135 lb. women use kenpo to defend themselves against very large men. Is that same woman going to enter a cage and beat a trained fighter? No! Would the same woman be better off if she trained another art? I can't answer that... and neither can anyone else.
    More beating around the bush. No comment as the above is re-hashing.

    Conclusion: there are many different goals for training martial arts. Self-defense is different from fighting in a cage or competition. Some people have no desire to compete and just want to train for the one or two fights they are likely to encouter in their life... and not to win a trophy or a medal, or even to defeat the attacker, but just to come home alive. If so, then who am I to tell them what they are doing is wrong? Matt Thornton's videos are geared toward competitors. In that context he is right. His advice is not universal, in my opinion.
    His advice is universal if you are trying to learn how to fight, in the ring or otherwise. His system is proven to work, and I doubt you would survivie in a real fight without that type of training. The only reason not to train like this, is because you are deluional, do not know any better, are afaird to put in the effort, or that you have a hard time lettinng go of old, unrealistic training. The only expecption to this is if you train not for self defense or sport, fully understand that your martial art would not work and admit to it, and not claim anything else.

    I believe you fall deeply under the, "can't let go of past training methods" category. Dude, please, for your own good, man up and realize your kenpo is not all that you claim it is. You know it and are having trouble letting go. Just look at 1point2; it took him years to let go of his karate, even though he knew it was not what he wanted. Stop fooling yourself and train right.


    I'm out,

    ZoA.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    — Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    — Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  10. kenpostudent is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    502

    Posted On:
    7/03/2009 3:25am


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ZoA,

    It's not that I have trouble letting go of kenpo. It is what it is... I like the art but see it for what it is... an incomplete art. It is a very technical art, though, despite it's lack of completeness.

    As far as aliveness goes, I have seen PLENTY of stuff taught at an MMA in an alive environment that will get you KILLED in a street fight. I still believe that sport fighters are better fighters, but I have seen my BJJ coach teach stuff that will get my head beat in. I am capable of making the distinction between what is useful in tournament and what is useful in self-defense. I don't believe what Thornton says is gospel or that it comes from on high. He is a man that has an opinion. Most of time, he happens to be right. Likewise, I filter what my coaches say through a similar BS filter. Some of what they teach, despite the fact that it is taught alive, would leave me open to tons of counterattacks. I take what is useful and use it as I see fit.

    How do I know I have fighting skill if I don't test it? Well, I spar as much as I can against many different opponents from different styles. Can I test everything I know? Probably not because I would hurt my partner. Rules are inherent in any training environment. I train what I can full force and train the rest as hard as safety permits. Do I believe in the fabled "DEADLY"? I think some of it works, but I wouldn't rely upon it. Eye gouges, throat strikes, groin shots, ect. can work, but you better have more than that to survive.

    I tend to think Thornton's advice is very extreme. If you take what he says to its logical extreme, there are so few arts worth training. You would have to scrap nearly every art, except boxing, judo, BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai or Sambo. While I like those arts, I have found value in other systems. I think Kenpo has some excellent techniques and strategies that I have not found elsewhere. In fact, much of kenpo works very well in cancelling judo throws and breaking grips. I could go my whole life without doing another form or set, though.

    I train as alive as possible for me. Yet, I realize that not everyone is willing to train that way. I have met plenty of guys that do stuff that Thornton finds taboo but can still fight. They can't all be lucky. I prefer to train in the most alive way possible because I find the honorable competition fun. I also find beauty in the technique that allows a smaller fighter to dominate a larger opponent.

    I would feel better about myself if I left kenpo behind? Please! It's an art I did... it is not who I am. I have no attachment to it. Some of it is patently stupid and some of it is great. I take the good and leave the bad.
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