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  1. Josh_Grant is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2009 10:38am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo, WMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Question for the Kenpo Stylists...

    Hey Guys-

    So, I’ve been training for close to 13 years in various forms of Kenpo (American, Shaolin, Okinawan, etc) and, in truth, I have my doubts about the style.

    Ok- just too clear things up, this is not meant to start a flame war or anything. It really is an honest attempt at getting questions answered…

    Has any of the Kenpo stylists here used any of the techniques in a real street encounter, where one’s life was on the line?

    Josh
  2. mintusmaximus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2009 12:49am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: American Kenpo (LTKKA)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My Life? No, I don't think my life was in danger. However I was in danger of getting a beat down. While stationed in Okinawa Japan I trained under my friend and first EPAK teacher. Sensei Luis Ramirez. Anywho... if anyone knows anything about US Marines on Okinawa... Gate 2 street is a place where people get drunk and stupid. Many a times I implimented yellow belt and beginner Orange belt techniques to nulllify threats and ...well without sounding 'too proud' laying some people out.

    The thing I find that most people have a gripe w/ Kenpo is that a lot of the schools teach with 'Static Ukes'. However Luis always had us move around and try to counter the techs. For instance 'Lone Kimono' The Uke would pull your gi almost off trying to over power you...shake you.... let go after you hyper extend the arm and grab you w/ the other hand...etc. So I had experience utilizing the quick over-kill techniques in 'real life' situation with real life reactions from people.

    I have caught a lot of people with basic techniques such as... Checking the Storm. On Gate 2 street a buddy of mine was getting picked on by another larger individual. My friend wasn't a fighter and so I tried to separate the two. I stepped between my friend and the guy and somewhat stupidly gave the guy my back so that he wouldn't think I was getting into his face. He grabbed my left shoulder with his right arm. Without thinking I controlled his hand and at the same time caught him with the back chop to the throat and rotated it into the groin shot. Luckily it was enough to bring him to his knees.

    Another time I used the beginning of Five Swords. Guy squared up with me. I stood in my neutral bow... hands up in a "Hey I don't want any trouble." He didn't do a right hook so much as he went for a right hooked 'slap' so it was slightly slower. I rotated inward blasted his knee with a check from mine, *as I was taught* did the double block inward and then blasted his artery. He dropped from that so I didn't need to use the rest of the technique.

    So to answer the question from my experience. Yes the techniques work. Maybe I was a bit cheap by blasting them and catching them off guard but... it works for me. I used what I was taught and I did it as fast and correct as I could and it worked. I am only an Under belt so I would assume a 1st Dan or higher would be able to easily implement this into a real altercation.
    Last edited by mintusmaximus; 5/05/2009 12:55am at .
  3. mike321 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2009 11:21pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What techniques are you concerned about? The techniques I was taught were not radical, mostly punches and kicks. The gripe would probably come with the aliveness of the training and point sparring being considered a viable training method. Please give some more detail on your concerns.
  4. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2009 2:39pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have used techniques in fights... Gathering Clouds in one. I don't believe that using techniques the way they were written is the only indication of effectiveness. This is one indication of effectiveness.... not the ONLY one. The idea of kenpo is the system erases itself as the motion is internalized.

    That being said, I can make the techniques work in a sparring or spontaneous scenario. However, you must practice this. Technique lines with static ukes will not get you there. You have to practice against fully resistant opponents. I find it is best to practice against non-kenpo practitioners because they don't know the techniques or how the "should" react. For instance, my roommate studies boxing and bjj. He has no clue what I'm going to do and does not attack with the typical BS step-through punch that you will find in most technique lines. That makes for better practice.

    Furthermore, full techniques are not always necessary. Think of Triggered Salute... if you land the first move dead on the money, the rest of the technique probably won't be there because the guy will be on his ass. Same goes for Five Swords... a good shot to the neck is likely to stop most people... but the rest of the technique is there in case it does not.

    The most important thing to remember about kenpo is that the self defense techniques model motion more than anything else. They work as written, but they are not gospel. Think of boxing... one combo is a jab, jab, right cross, hook. Do I have to employ that to the letter all the time? I can change and rearrange it any way I see fit. The techniques are no different. The problem is in the training... most kenpoist stop at learning the dead pattern and never move on to alive training.

    Another element to self defense techniques is to understand when and why some techniques are used at certain times and not others. There are 12 or so techniques against a right punch. Why? The short answer is that each technique represents different ranges and different open targets.... just an example of what could be done, not what MUST be done. Ultimately, what you do in a situation where you need to defend yourself is going to depend on the circumstances of the attack and what your opponent does.
  5. Foolish is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2009 11:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    I don't believe that using techniques the way they were written is the only indication of effectiveness. This is one indication of effectiveness.... not the ONLY one. The idea of kenpo is the system erases itself as the motion is internalized.
    QFT, I have been trying to figure out the best way to say this for quite a while.
  6. HongkongFooie is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2009 8:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Its all Good

    Kenpo, like any style, depends on the student to work. Almost all martial arts are effective forms of self defense and kenpo does work. It seems like your looking for the perfect style (3 or 4 different styles in 13 years). Try finding one really good instructor and perfecting YOUR skill in one style. I'm sure you will be pleasently suprised.
  7. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2009 9:14pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HongkongFooie View Post
    Kenpo, like any style, depends on the student to work. Almost all martial arts are effective forms of self defense and kenpo does work. It seems like your looking for the perfect style (3 or 4 different styles in 13 years). Try finding one really good instructor and perfecting YOUR skill in one style. I'm sure you will be pleasently suprised.
    I helpfully bolded your stupid comments and underlined the patently false statements.

    Please lurk more until you understand what this website is about. I recommend Newbietown.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  8. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2009 9:46pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to reiterate 1point2:


    Quote Originally Posted by HongkongFooie View Post
    Kenpo, like any style, depends on the student to work.
    Not always. What if the student has no idea what to do? We all start off as being very reliant on our instructors, because we know no better, it is first up to the teacher, in my opinion, to instill proper training methods and an appropriate attitude towards training.

    Of course, there is a good portion that rides on the students shoulders, but that is after they understand what they are doing/expected to accomplish.

    But this all is moot if the training is utter crap.

    Almost all martial arts are effective forms of self defense and kenpo does work.
    This is simply not true. Some arts are founded on questionable training methods, business practices, and sometimes are just plain cult gatherings that brainwash the so called students into BS. As far as the majority of martial arts goes, it is usually the questionable training methods that is the prevalent problem.

    It seems like your looking for the perfect style (3 or 4 different styles in 13 years). Try finding one really good instructor and perfecting YOUR skill in one style. I'm sure you will be pleasently suprised.

    I am not even going to comment on this one...:BangHead:
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    — Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    — Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  9. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2009 11:34pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I helpfully bolded your stupid comments and underlined the patently false statements.

    Please lurk more until you understand what this website is about. I recommend Newbietown.
    Actually, I don't think what he said was that stupid, the mission of the site notwithstanding. I think that getting a base in a system is smart advice. Until you have a solid foundation in one art, there is no real sense in attempting to branch out to other arts. That leads to someone who is a jack of all trades. This is good for MMA (arguably... note the Demarques Johnson fight... he got ruined by a bjj black belt BECAUSE he is only a journeyman grappler and not a master of any one skillset), not so good for self-defense.

    We can argue training methodologies all day long, and most TMAs have poor ones. That is beside the point, I think HKF wanted to emphasize the importance of truly understanding a system before simply discarding it. I have seen too many guys quit kenpo at blue belt to argue that it sucks because THEY never fully understood the system. That lends to anything but a fair critique of the art.
  10. HongkongFooie is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2009 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Thx for taking the time...

    Thx for taking the time to understand what I am saying. There are many styles that are good for self defense, the key is hard work and practice. I am not trying to say that every school is good (we all know about the various McDojos) but most styles have a core of good solid techniques that will work very well against the average untrained street fighter.
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