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  1. Saihoji is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2011 1:59pm

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     Style: Bujinkan budo taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm kind of disappointed, really. If this is supposed to be the "no BS" place, how can you state such a thing as a fact without showing what basis you have for it?
  2. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2011 4:00pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Saihoji -- Plasma, the moderator who made the claim in the Original Post, has been on hiatus.

    Your question "I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today," strongly implies that you've never heard of Ueno Takashi. As it happens, Ueno is not alive today.

    You can, in fact, find a wealth of information about him and his connection to the Takamatsuden simply by googling the name. As for the specific claims Plasma makes:

    a.) He made them, and I feel he should defend them.

    b.) This is another noodle in the "Takamatsuden Spaghetti" and one I haven't tried to follow, let alone unravel. All I'm really comfortable saying is that Ueno Takashi was a student of Takamatsu's and apparently a teacher of Hatsumi's prior to Takamatsu. Just use The Google, you'll see plenty of people discussing this elsewhere on the web. A couple of sample hits:
    http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Ueno.html

    Ueno Takashi was a student of Takamatsu Toshisugu and the teacher to Hatsumi Masaaki during the mid 1950's and also maybe in the early years of the 1960's prior to Hatsumi sensei studying under Takamatsu sensei.
    http://www.ninjutsu.com/History%20of...%20RyuNL.shtml

    Because of this secrecy there are two people laying claim to being the Soke of this school. One is Hatsumi Masaaki, and the other, Ueno Takashi, is also an ex-student like Hatsumi of Takamatsu Toshitsugu (some people believe him to be a relative of Takamatsu). Both give different lineage. The Dai Nipon Bugei Ryu-ha book lists Ueno lineage and has no mention of the Toda-Takamatsu-Hatsumi line so somewhere in the eight missing generations someone either split a school or gave it to two people. Ueno Takashi is reputed to have been covered with tattoos, and was very friendly with the local Yakuza. It is possible that Ueno Takashi is dead, and that the new inheritor to this version of the Gyokushin Ryu is Kaminage Shigemi
    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/arc...p/t-20969.html

    It should also be pointed out that Ueno Takashi was Hatsumi Sensei's teacher prior to Takamatsu Sensei, and that Ueno gave Hatsumi Sensei menkyo kaiden in Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu in 1959 (Showa 34).
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=22283

    I have not heard that Sato Kinbei Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei did not get along, but I have heard that Ueno Takashi Sensei did have a problem. At one time Hatsumi Sensei was a student of Ueno Sensei. From what I understand Hatsumi Sensei went to Takamatsu Sensei behind Ueno Sensei's back and started training with Takamatsu Sensei, while he was still a student of Ueno Sensei's. I'm not sure what kind of problem that caused between Takamatsu Sensei and Ueno Sensei, but there seemed to have been a strain between Hatsumi Sensei and Ueno Sensei. A student of Kaminaga Shigemi, Kai Kuniyuki, said in an interview that Ueno Sensei expelled (the Japanese term is "hamon") Hatsumi Sensei. Whether this is true or not, I don't know.
    c.) Plasma made his statement based on the information he uncovered while training in the Genbukan, so I'm sure you'll find it has a different point of view from the information passed along in the Bujinkan. By all means, investigate the information that is available and decide the truth for yourself.
  3. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2011 5:00am

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     Style: Bullshido's Ninja

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Saihoji View Post
    I never heard this. What are the sources for Ueno was appointed successor, Ueno having the scrolls to prove it? I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today. Anyone who has more information on him?
    Thanks Styygens.

    I'll just add a demo of Kaminaga Shigemi's group doing Koto-ryu from the Ueno Takashi lineage.

    Koto ryu Koppojutsu demonstrated by Kaminaga Shigemi's group at the Ueno Takashi 20th Memorial Bujutsu Embutaikai :
  4. Saihoji is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2011 8:58am

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     Style: Bujinkan budo taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Your question "I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today," strongly implies that you've never heard of Ueno Takashi. As it happens, Ueno is not alive today.
    I wrote that I hadn't heard the story before, so it should not come as a surprise I never heard about Ueno. But any teacher of Hatsumi's probably would be very, very old by now - or dead, so the conclusion is not difficult to draw.

    I do know how to use google. I used it. And I found... forum discussions, not much else. Not much hard facts. Even the quotes you display here are mainly "I heard", "it is possible that", "whether it is true or not I do not know". This isn't proof. It isn't even evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Plasma made his statement based on the information he uncovered while training in the Genbukan, so I'm sure you'll find it has a different point of view from the information passed along in the Bujinkan. By all means, investigate the information that is available and decide the truth for yourself.
    I am not discussing what the people in Bujinkan say. I am not discussing what truth I should decide for myself. I am discussion
    what the Bullshido FAQ about the topic says. Now it turns out it is based on the stories people tell in the Genbukan? A little bit of healthy scepticism regarding sources, anyone?

    Plasma is entitled to believe whatever he wants to. So am I. But if Bullshido accepts the bias of one individual to be put in a sticky FAQ, this website is not what it says it is. Plasma has contributed a nice youtube vid, that proves exactly nothing regarding legitimacy.

    Nothing is proven in either direction, AFAIK. So why should that section be in the FAQ anyway? Support it with good evidence, or remove it. Or agree Bullshido is just a big bunch of hypocrites as all the TMA teachers who happily tell their students everything their teacher told them, without ever questioning everything.
  5. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2011 4:52pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Thanks Styygens.
    No problem. I was just holding the fort.

    May I -- seriously, but politely -- suggest you provide a citation for the assertion that Takamatsu made Ueno his successor? I have a feeling I know what will happen next, but maybe we should let it play out.

    If you can't provide a citation, or on second look it doesn't appear to support the assertion as strongly as you thought it did when you wrote the FAQ, perhpas we should consider rewording that section of the FAQ? When I read that section I believe your point is that Hatsumi's claim to the Takamatsuden may not be as unique as is generally described in the Bujinkan, and there is still some controversy surrounding the lineage claim.

    Thoughts?
  6. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2011 5:08pm

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     Style: Bullshido's Ninja

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ninpo Bugei Vol.1 by Tanemura Shoto as a pretty robust lineage chart on page 112 and 113. Which have the list of the Takamatsu Students that have taught including Akimoto, Sato as well as Hatsumi.

    The fact that Ueno was running Takamatsu's school after he retired is the a common thread of all the Hatsumi/Tanemura/Takamastsu biographies. If Takamatsu truly removed Ueno in favor of Hatsumi, there really only is Hatsumi's word. If you want further information I would seek out Kaminaga Shigemi or Tanaka Fumon.

    Unfortunately, any source on this subject is going to be considering 'bias" by one side or the other, unless something magically is found written by Takamatsu.
    Last edited by Plasma; 6/14/2011 5:14pm at .
  7. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2011 9:22pm

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     Style: Bullshido's Ninja

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Saihoji View Post
    Nothing is proven in either direction, AFAIK. So why should that section be in the FAQ anyway? Support it with good evidence, or remove it. Or agree Bullshido is just a big bunch of hypocrites as all the TMA teachers who happily tell their students everything their teacher told them, without ever questioning everything.
    Isn't kind of what you are doing? What source outside of Hatsumi and the X-Kan label Hatsumi as Grandmaster of Togakure-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, etc. Sounds like you are just parroting the Bujinkan top members.

    Anyway, if it turns out you are completely correctly and I am wrong, it doesn't change the fact that the Bujinkan still looks that this:

  8. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2011 3:43pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Ninpo Bugei Vol.1 by Tanemura Shoto as a pretty robust lineage chart on page 112 and 113. Which have the list of the Takamatsu Students that have taught including Akimoto, Sato as well as Hatsumi.

    The fact that Ueno was running Takamatsu's school after he retired is the a common thread of all the Hatsumi/Tanemura/Takamastsu biographies. If Takamatsu truly removed Ueno in favor of Hatsumi, there really only is Hatsumi's word. If you want further information I would seek out Kaminaga Shigemi or Tanaka Fumon.

    Unfortunately, any source on this subject is going to be considering 'bias" by one side or the other, unless something magically is found written by Takamatsu.
    To add I also have the Ueno Takashi 20th Anniversary Memorial book, published by Buyubooks when they were still in business. It also has lineage charts and also states that Takashi was the successor to many schools that Hatsumi claims. Koto Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu were passed down to Kaminaga Shigemi. Hatsumi is actually listed as a student of Ueno on several of the schools but not as successor. It even shows Tanemura as a student of Hatsumi as well and then shows him going back and being a student under Sato Kinbei in the same school.
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  9. vaquero de las nalgas is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2011 7:25pm


     Style: Hsing I, Bagua, Chi kung

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    Ninpo Bugei Vol.1 by Tanemura Shoto as a pretty robust lineage chart on page 112 and 113. Which have the list of the Takamatsu Students that have taught including Akimoto, Sato as well as Hatsumi.
    Huh, I have a copy of that book, have to look at that.

    I remember reading in a couple of places, statements that sometimes relatively junior students were promoted to master status of a ryu. A younger man or woman will carry the title longer, promote the school more actively, etc. A younger person may also break out of the mold more readily. Can't remember if they were in Meik Skoss books, Serge Mol or Karl Friday.
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