Women's self defense class advice

**Bram** · Posted On: 5/04/2009 6:59pm

I thought this was an LEO, Military, SD forum..
the question I thought was what to teach women..The original poster had some really good ideas,, and said he wasn't sure of womens point of view.
My wifes article might be old but its still a womans point of view..
And she CAN kick, punch, grapple..and is much better now than then..yet her attitude on training and abilities are NOT the average woman wanting a self defense class.
Thats who one has to deal with.
logic chain issues? only with people who coment on things they don't know..I guess you don't cut stuff do you?
or you ( thats a generalized you) wouldn't make such an assholian comment about what damage a knife will do..because of its size. Size doesn't matter..maybe theres some got penis envy confused with knife work and its a one thinks bigger is better?
I teach live cutting @ the range. We do shooting and cutting there..Why not try it ..? Ohh thats right you don't think it will work?
I suggest maybe you go spend some time in a real ER..as well.
You'll see what tools do to accomplish the goal..
And I guess you never had parts cut off or cut others parts off...
How big or small a blade would you let me cut you with..?

Would you like to try? Google me: come anywhere I am..

Maybe you hunt?
Maybe you might want to come to my ATO hunting classes @ Mc Dill and S2.

As for the magazine..same issue and your evaluation of it..get real..
Theres a few magazines in each genre that stand the test of time..
IKF, BB are still there 40 years later...

As for logic: my wife is pretty small, unfortunately size matters...size doesn't matter to tools..shes got 2% body fat and shes ripped..She trains everyday..
Do you? most women don't ..so teaching them something that neeeds physical strength training is next to point;less.. in SDR

As for the attitude she presented: guess what its a real woman's point of view.. and since this was about teaching women and they certainly see things differently than we do.. is valid..

No matter..

Glad to know cyberism still lives.
why not come play a bit where I teach..
Come to BLADE in Atlanta...teaching on Sunday of the show
You guys @ FLETC get a discount.
or better yet if you are LE/Military come play @ S2 with me..
its a level 2 restriction on training...

Ok..

no worries..
teach'em kick punch..teach'em grappling..tewchem to swing elbows..
teach them whatver you think you can do in a few hours and let them go on the street..

As for calling my wife or anyone an idiot: A writers point of view to establish a point in an article and what transpires in real time with blood on ones hands differs. She made a point from a womans point of view, now over 10 years later with that bit of extra training...since she teaches LE, Military et al with me..I'm sure she can set you straight...
You never know do you..?
Maybe one of my daughters should do it...

and you think you're going to take a knife out of her or my hands?
You ought to sell that skilll to the all types of police: "we" certainly could use it..

be safe
Bram

**vigilus** · Posted On: 5/04/2009 9:12pm

More reason to separate an SD forum with a Mil/Leo one.

**vigilus** · Posted On: 5/04/2009 9:13pm

Originally Posted by Bram

Maybe one of my daughters should do it...

Got a pic of your daughters?

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 5/04/2009 11:26pm

I liked Bram's article. It made sense to me. I'm not a woman though and trying to understand them is beyond my coprehension, so I don't bother.

Using tools is a great idea. Of course learning to use/wield a knife effectively in 2 hours isn't really possible. Nonetheless, I think Bram made a vaild point if a women or any person wants to learn street defense a knife is a safe bet.

I still like your overall original plan for the class. Weapons adds a whole different element that is definately beyond a 2 hr class, Tryng to teach inexpierenced women (or anyone) weapons use/defense is setting them up for trouble.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/05/2009 12:02am

Originally Posted by GuiltySpark

More reason to separate an SD forum with a Mil/Leo one.

Hunh? Is Beorn a Leo?

**vigilus** · Posted On: 5/05/2009 6:54am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Hunh? Is Beorn a Leo?

No idea. Beorn could be a Samurai with his disembowel someone stuff.
Side note, Bram it's creepy when people refer to training together as playing with each other.

Just made my comment because I'm
a. Biased and
b. Don't think Mil/Leo discussions really fit in with womans self defense threads.

**Beorn** · Posted On: 5/05/2009 9:31am

Bram,

May I first say that I mis-spoke when I said the "size" of knife is the issue. While length does have some say in how badly you can be cut, there are many more important factors that come into play. Substitute "quality" in for size in my rant and you will know what I meant, hopefully. I had an ex once that carried a knife for self defense, it was about as dull as a table knife, not very good for slicing. If you teach the use of a knife, you have to teach at least the basics of knife maitenence, which is something most people don't want to be bothered with, in my experience.

Furthermore, I will openly state that I am in no way formally trained in edged weapons, and that all my experience comes from informal training with a western weapons guy and a few real life experiences. I am not qualified to teach weapons, so I don't do it. I do however, have opinions.

I think we got off on the wrong foot. Having re-read the article, I understand better the point that your wife was trying to make. The reason that I went off on it, and have gone off on other articles like it, was the hyperbole in the style. She made it sound (to me) like carrying a knife is the only way to defend yourself, and that nothing else is as effective. Having read your second post and rereading the article, I am now fairly sure that was not your intent. I am sorry that I went off on your post, but I have been exposed to many people trying to sell the magic virtues of knives in self defense, and most do not know how to use them. Clearly if you teach in an alive manner like you say, you are not one of those people.

I do however, disagree that you can teach someone adverse to violence how to be basically proficient with a knife in a two hour window. I believe that most women would not be comfortable with cutting someone, and I think it would take more than two hours to undo that. I also believe there is a problem with initially drawing the knife, especially if it is a small folding knife. If a woman keeps her knife in her purse it may take her a second to find the knife, and if she is unfamiliar with opening it one handed she may not be able to open it in time. I also believe there would be a problem with retention of the knife. If they miss with one wild swing and the attacker either steps inside the arc or pins the arm down on the follow through (the two ways I have done it) the attacker will be able to control the knife hand, and basically control the knife, giving him a weapon. Basically, I think that they would have too many bad habits and of I encouraged them to carry a knife will minimal training I feel like the most likely scenario would be their knife being taken from them and used against them.

The way I have structured my lesson plan is to include only gross motor movements, and things that even if done incorrectly will not put the women in question in greater danger than they were already in. There are no moves that sacrifice posistion, and most of them are honestly just about improving their position until they are at a point where they can escape. My whole thing is actually about getting away without escalating the level of violence if possible, and that is in opposition to pulling a knife immeadiately. Not saying you are wrong, but it is a different kind of training than the method I am going for.

in conclusion, I may have misjudged you initially, and if I did I apologize. Calling your wife an idiot was probably out of line, but the hyperbole of the article sent red flags up to me. I do not think knives should be carried by anyone without more training than a two hour class can provide. I am also not qualified to teach it even if I thought otherwise, so it is a moot point. It also goes against the overall theme of descalation and keeping stuff from going over the top.

Originally Posted by IIF

Hunh? Is Beorn a Leo

nope, far too much of a libertarian to enforce most municipal laws.

Originally Posted by GuiltySpark

No idea. Beorn could be a Samurai with his disembowel someone stuff.
Side note, Bram it's creepy when people refer to training together as playing with each other.

Just made my comment because I'm
a. Biased and
b. Don't think Mil/Leo discussions really fit in with womans self defense threads.

my disembowel comment was hyperbole in response to the hyperbole of the article. In hindsight, probably could have been stated better.

the whole reason I posted this here was that most of the time it is LEOs who deal with cases of domestic violence, robbery, and rape. Since they are better informed on the nature of these crimes than I am, I was seeking input. I designed my outline based on the studies I looked at, which stated that a women was more likely to be raped by someone she knows than a stranger breaking into her house at night. So I designed something that was very different than the usual "there is a rapist in every alleyway and you will have to fight for your life" deal. I wanted to see if leos agreed.

**C.E.G** · Posted On: 5/08/2009 12:31am

Beorn,

First, very classy of you to apologize like that. Most folks wouldn't.

I know Bram personally and have had the opportunity to train with him, something I'm very thankful for. (Hi Bram, Dan Murray here). In 13 years of training, I'd take his knife system over anyone elses I've seen both for practicality and use of force considerations.

I've also been teaching Women's Self Defense Seminars for 5 years now as well as beineg a Military Police Officer. I think your basic plan is a good one and that a lot of good ideas have been presented in this thread.

2 hours is just not enough time to teach an effective unarmed course covering all areas of a potential assault. I usually teach 4, 2 hour classes and even then I keep things very simple.

2 hours of situational awareness, boundary setting, common sense
2 hours of strikes (Palm strike, knee strike, eye gouge, hammerfist)
2 hours of grappling/escapes (Upa, guard, bearhug/choke escapes, etc)
2 hours on improvised weapons (being mentally willing to use them and very very basic ideas on how to use them)

Every day also includes full impact drills on a padded assailant (in a Red Man Suit with an old school FIST head gear).

One thing to consider that i've noticed in all my seminars is many students will have an aversion to getting on the ground and actually practicing ground work. It feels natural to us because we do it often but to a first time student, it's a big leap.

I've read that out of a 4 hour seminar, most people will be lucky to retain 20% of what you have showed them. The main things you can hope to impress upon them are common sense and confidence.

Good Luck with the course and please update us on how it went. If you'd like to discuss it more, feel free to drop me a PM.