Posted On:4/19/2009 2:19pm
Style: 剛 and 柔
Representatives of the Okinawan (1point2) and Chinese (Jack Rusher & Ming Loyalist) martial traditions met in NYC to discuss the overlap and similarities between styles, compare forms and applications, swap drills, and generally train. The CMA/OMA Conference went off smoothly and with great fanfare. Here are my notes (in several parts) of the meet-up. Video will be included forthwith.
My List of Things I Wanted to See or Do or Something
Naihanchi kata (pre-Itosu's tripling of it) and its reference points in Chinese martial artsMarcelo's armdrag (just 'cause I wanted to see it)CMA no-gi hip throw entriesGeneral forms comparisonGeneral applications shoot-the-****-eryTuishou (push hands) with chin na and shuai jiaoCMA-specific drills
I have to go and don't have the video off the camera yet, but I will whet your appetite for the time being with my comparison of ukemi, judo-style and shuai-jiao style.
Instead of slapping, the SJ method apparently involves frequent use of Tiger Hugs Head for sidefalls and as the result of rolls. This is intended to allow for throws which involve landing with a person on top of you, or on one's front. The CMA front-fall is similar to the elbows-and-toes conditioning exercise, except that the elbows are flush with the abs. I found this superior to the Japanese "hands up--this is a stickup" technique, but IMO inferior to Tim Cartmell's reverse pushup (from his Standing Grappling DVD). Generally, the judo method involves either a roll-out to standing, or a slap to cease the roll. I found the CMA method, where one allows the momentum of the fall or projection to cease of its own accord while one protects their head, limbs and torso, to be both useful in taking CMA-specific throws, and interesting as a whole methodology or approach.
Thanks go to Ming for his hospitality, and Jack for organization (AFAIK).
More to come--including techniques, video, TKD instructionals from the 80's (complete with porno soundtrack) and UFC.
Last edited by 1point2; 4/19/2009 2:25pm at .
What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
Posted On:4/19/2009 2:28pm
I'm told the whole shindig originated from DerAus, who saw this thread: CMA/OMA overlap in Naihanchi kata"? - No BS Martial Arts
which was spawned from this thread:
Does anyone know how to do this baji throw? - No BS Martial Arts
And wanted to take an in-depth look into these similarities in concept and practice.
Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute
Posted On:4/19/2009 2:30pm
Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan
Thanks, man. It makes me a sad panda to miss that, but this thread will ease the pain.
Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute is a non profit educational facility.
If you know of any individuals or businesses who would like to make a donation to help support the school and keep its doors open for the community, please PM me.
Posted On:4/19/2009 5:52pm
Style: ti da shuai na
My girlfriend took video of our initial demonstrations of different techniques, which were all Ming or myself showing things from CMA to 1point2. I've pieced together the various techniques (pretty much all throws) into a highlight reel:
YouTube - OMA/CMA Meetup
... these are all compliant or semi-compliant demos, so many of them are fairly soft in execution. Later, 1point2 and I did some more vigorous takedown sparring (i.e. freestyle push hands) and submission grappling. I think there's some of the latter, but none the former, on his camera.
Last edited by It is Fake; 4/20/2009 1:46pm at .
Reason: PM from Jack asking for a new video link
“Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
Posted On:4/19/2009 7:18pm
Nice vid Jack. I think the hane goshi is an uchimata. I think the demo/mostly-compliant stuff ended up looking pretty durn good for what it was.
To expound upon Ming's hip toss entries: my list of course included CMA no-gi hip toss entries. Ming broadened that to include his basic clinchwork from Hung Ga. The fundamentals as I wrote them down are:
Use the elbow/forearm of the head-gripping side to drive into the opponent. If they allow this drive, fine--chase and strike or otherwise attack, since you've dictated their movement. If they resist, 180 for the hip toss.Use both grips to pull the opponent forward and down. If they drop a knee, fine--that's considered a fall in that ruleset, or you could pull them further into turtle or somesuch in order to commence groundwork. What we want is to expose a weighted leg to sweep from the outside (osotogari). This can occur from bracing or from the opponent moving backwards.Pull the opponent circularly (I believe towards the elbow grip) and block their foot--either step on it after it's down, or catch it just before it lands. Either way, rotate their upper body and stop the foot. I found this interesting because it's the complementary technique to okuri-ashi-barai.Some form of kouchigari (minor inside sweep) from what I termed "wrong turn" which must mean opposite of the way I've seen it done in judo--not sure what this means. Ming?
So, good basic high-percentage stuff. Jack added on to this the CMA version of uchimata from a whizzer, which I have seen quite frequently in Cartmell's stuff. See 0:50 here:
YouTube - Light sparring at Shen Wu
The part of Jack's vid where he tosses me twice with the same throw is the culmination of the spark that started the trail to this Summit. It's Peng, as well as Parting Wild Horses Mane if I'm not mistaken, which is found in the first arm extension of Naihanchi kata. We didn't spend too much time on it during the meetup, but that's what I got from the old thread. Other notes on the technique stress the postural and conceptual nature of peng, as opposed to the application of the technique, and how this kind of power generation is rooted in the hips and is fundamental to the other 7 taiji methods.
I'll post some of the striking drills and connections we did, in our next installment.
Posted On:4/19/2009 8:38pm
Originally Posted by Scott Larson
Thanks, man. It makes me a sad panda to miss that, but this thread will ease the pain.
Next time, young sir. Would love to meet you.
Posted On:4/19/2009 10:00pm
Tiger claw in hung ga reminded me of the part of Seisan that I always mnemonic'd as Brush Knee from Taiji (specifically http://www.oxfordtaichi.com/brush_knee.0.html)
Hung Ga leopard techniques - Muay Thai as an example, also, cuff the jab to counter with a lead hand hook.
Tiger Hugs Head taiji boxing drill from Jack to work Isshinryu Basic 10 / Naihanchi's "Fonz fixes his hair" move (very similar to Crazy Monkey boxing defense): two versions of the drill:
A) Moving around, apply vs. crosses and jabs. Headgear and gloves for uke and tori respectively is good but not necessary. Angling in or crashing straight are preferred to staying still or moving back. Elbow to chin is neat-o, overhook clinch comes naturally, as does a collar tie. Okinawan approach would be to hook and pull in (meh) or to move to the outside with the elbow-up block, cutting off the near arm and countering from what we call the "preferred block" position.
B) Against a wall, starting with slipping techniques then adding the elbow blocks. Good for intro-to-face-punching.
Note that the tiger hugging the head is not the same as the tiger in hung ga. Mandarin vs. Cantonese, y'know.
Hung Ga Roundhouse kick (RHK) drill: place kicking shin on uke's belly/side or thigh in the "cocked" position and extend/push through the remainder of the kick. Use lead and rear leg both in turn. Taiji variation: add lead wrist grab, kick thigh with push, then enter for WMA-and-CMA-style no-gi, hip-not-gi-pant-grabbing variation of judo's Sukui nage (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/sukuinage.htm).
Next up: cai with jin, Naihanchi stance WTF, stepping kick across styles, and more.
Posted On:4/19/2009 11:36pm
Taiji cai with jin ~ jerking pull on neck of wrist (Japanese terminology there). Follow with strike with same hand back towards them.
Naihanchi stance is in the other thread as a great big WTF. Here we discuss the Isshinryu/toes-in, knees-in version. It remains WTFy, and I was interested to see that it turned up in multiple Southern kung fu styles as a crane stance. His TMA explanation matched my TMA explanation, which is to say, no way. It doesn't block kicks, don't even try, don't pass go, don't try to weasel no $200 out of the bank. Ming mentioned adduction (is that the right word? Pulling knees/thighs together) as being a possible use--for balance in strength training. Meh. If true, it doesn't convince me of the usefulness of doing it that way in the form--as Jack said, it made the body mechanics of the form generally worthless.
From there we talked about the "gung ji kung fu" (???) stepping drill, which is related to Naihanchi stepping only slightly. We took a look at its similarity to judo's forward throw entry (as in harai goshi or uchimata). You can see it in the very informative and drill-laden French: YouTube - JUDO Le perfectionnement d'uchi mata 1 at about 1:30, when he steps with intent behind his lead foot. Apparently in CMA this is a "cheating" step? Ming, Jack, others, please step in if I get any of this wrong.
This lead into step-kick variations, which were similar across styles.
1. For starting out or teaching very basic, stepping the feet together (which is very unstable) by bringing the back foot up, then kicking with the front.
2. Skipping, which as I do it is the same as 1 but the legs never come close to each other. As one moves, the other moves, as if they were connected by invisible rods.
3. Stepping through, for distance. Often this is similar to a more driving version of (2).
The invisible rods remind me that I briefly showed Jack an Okinawan guard drill that I think I've seen Kyokushin people do. Square hips to your opponent, one foot back, hands up like two middle blocks, fists even with shoulders and rear hand only slightly behind the lead hand. Not protecting the centerline, but holding them slightly apart (imagine holding a cat's cradle between your hands...except with fists). From there, your coach feeds shovel hooks, straight punches, and wide punches (we use slaps when no gloves) to the body and head. The goal is to let the hips and shoulders swivel so that the arms can move in unison, blocking strong techniques together (like checking a high roundhouse) or striking while the other hand checks an incoming technique. Inside middle blocks, inside lower blocks, and outside "blocks" or jams are emphasized more than other blocks in the drill.
Next up--stance work, kick catching, and fixing my knee-through pass. Video as soon as I get to my gf's place where the camera cord is.
Valiant Monk of Booze & War
Posted On:4/19/2009 11:56pm
Posted On:4/20/2009 1:33am
Sounds like a fun time.
I especially enjoyed 1p2's haircut, beard, and shorts. I've always wanted to meet a time traveler from 1978.
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