223596 Bullies, 4135 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 31
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    4/15/2009 12:06pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Medieval dim mak

    This is following the mysticism in WMA.
    I used the mortstoss (murder thrust) as an example of same effect but different way of explaining it.

    As far as I can tell the Ringeck is the only manual that describe the targets to such extend.
    I think some of the target are mentioned in Fiore and may be in the codex.

    They come in two groups but the idea is to use the pressure and or strike to facilitate wrestling regardless. As well we are supposed to hit as hard as we can.

    Those one are used against front bear hug or when an attack to the upper boddy comes forward with the arms out. Shooting is dealt with separately (by sprawling and tucking his head in )

    Stinking/push the throat/under the chin with both or one hand,
    Hook the thumb under the throat and gouge the eyes with the rest of the finger
    One hand behind the head the other at the chin and twist.
    Thumb in the “shloufe” which can be either the temple or the recess bellow the adam- apple and above the manubrium. (in find the later more effective, easier to do and harder to defend against than the first).
    I think the ideas is to attack/manipulate the head to break structure more than direct pain/damage, the same way we use the point in fencing.

    The second seems to be more about causing pain that anything else and may be force a defence. (for example DLT start with a “feinting ” a strike)

    Strike to the “shlouff”
    Strike to the throat,
    Strike to the heart;
    Strikes to the goolies
    Both or one hand grabs at the back of the head, the thumb in/under the masseter or lower jaw and thrust on the side with the hand.
    Hand in the navel and thrust with the whole body.

    I believe that those are more general area that precise part of the body.
    I think the idea is to gives us zone to hit from the any side. More like generic firing area than precise anatomic point to hit.

    For example the throat at the times seems to be anything between the chin and the collarbone.
    So if you aim at the throat and you miss a little it does not really matter because, you can get the lower jaw or the collar bones, which is equally good

    The heart at the time was believed to be in the centre of the body, so it is really the solar plexus lower ribs/liver/stomach/pancreas, spleen.
    bascially the zone where the ribs are not attached to the sternum and not that well protected by muscle.

    Between the navel and the goolies we have the bladder and the hips that are good are to strike at any way (and are mentioned in other manuals).

    For completeness sake the armoured section add the knee as target to strike at and the ankle is targeted in one given technique but it is as much to make sure he falls than to do damage per se.
    phil
    Last edited by willaume; 4/15/2009 12:15pm at .
  2. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 4:52am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is a transcription of the original text.


    Ain ander stuck.
    Another piece
    Ob ain man baide arm vnder gaffen hätt vnd welt dich weg tragen oder werffen mitt störck: (69 v )
    If a man has grabbed you under the arms and will carry you or throw with strength.
    (Starting position for the following techniques)

    Der bruch.
    The break
    Fall im mitt baiden armen an sin kel vnd truck in.

    Fall (go down at) him with both/either arms on his neck (kel= kehle) and press in.


    Ain ander bruch.
    Another break
    Wennd im den kopff vmb mitt baiden henden, die ain hand an daß kün, die ander hinden an das haupt.

    Turn /reverse (umbwenden=zurückkehren) at his head around with both/either grips/hands, one hand at the face (kun from kennen) the other behind/against at the head

    Bruch.
    Baid daumen vnden an die kell vnd die andern finger an die ogen.
    Break
    Both thumbs under at the throat/neck and the other fingers in the eyes

    Bruch.
    Druck in mitt den daumen an den schlauff.
    Break
    Press in with the thumb/s at the temple ( Schläfe) or (schlaufe) recess


    phil
  3. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 5:06am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Von mort stossen: der erst.
    Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

    About the murder stike the first
    Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. Then engage him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up (ligen can have the idea of accepting the technique as in blending with it and raising up to go against.)

    Der ander mort stosß.
    Gryff den man an mitt der lincken hand ob der gürtel, vnd stoß im mittainem kny, mitt welchem du wilt, von vnden vff an sin hoden. Vnd do mittain starcks ringen.

    The second murder stike
    Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, and strike with one knee, whichever one you wish, from below onto his bolloks, an then wrestle with strength/vigour

    Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

    Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are chiefly researched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg/bone break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

    Der dritt mort stoß.
    Greuff den man an mitt der lincken hand ob der gürtel; vnd schlach inmitt gerechten hand zu geschlossen an den schlauff, so du hertest magst;vnd domitt ain starck ringen vff din bestes.

    The third
    Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, and strike him with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?)/right hand closed/locked in the temple ( Schläfe) or (schlaufe) recess. As hard as you can and with that wrestle strongly onto your best


    Ain mort stoß.
    Stoß in mitt baiden fernnsten henden zu geschlossen, so du härtest magst,an den halß. Darnach ring.

    A murder stroke
    With the furthest of both hands closed, so that you may be at the hardest, strike him at the throat after that wrestle

    Ain mort stoß.
    Tu jm bayde daumen in bayde bachen vnd die andern finger oben an daßhaupt, vnd stoß in mitt der rechten hand mitt gantzer macht.


    A murder stroke
    Do him both/either thumb at either/both cheeks/jaws (bache=backe) and the other finger on the top at the head and with toss/strike him with all your might with the right hand.

    (76 v)Ain mort stoß.
    Stos in mitt der rechten hand an den nabel, so du hertest magst.


    A murder stroke
    Thrust him at the navel with the right hand as strong as you can.
  4. SBG-ape is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    499

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 10:48am


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have anything to add to this right now, but thank you for posting the material. I appreciate it.
  5. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 11:46am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good work willaume. Just a few points that jumped me when reading:

    I would vote for "Schlauff" translating into "Schläfe", which is the temple.

    The temple has allways had a special place in german literature as a kind of "magical knockout spot". Maybe thats an old remnant of the medieval manuals?

    Wennd im den kopff vmb mitt baiden henden, die ain hand an daß kün, die ander hinden an das haupt.
    "kün" is the "Kinn" nowadays, and thus the jaw in english. This passage is a description of the typical "movie-style" neckbreak. You grab the opponents head with both hands, one placed on the jaw, the other placed on the back of the head. And then twist like you tried to screw it off.

    The more modern term for this would be "Den Hals umdrehen".
    Last edited by kwan_dao; 4/20/2009 11:57am at .
  6. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 11:54am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Der dritt mort stoß.
    Greuff den man an mitt der lincken hand ob der gürtel; vnd schlach inmitt gerechten hand zu geschlossen an den schlauff, so du hertest magst;vnd domitt ain starck ringen vff din bestes.

    The third
    Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, and strike him with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?)/right hand closed/locked in the temple ( Schläfe) or (schlaufe) recess. As hard as you can and with that wrestle strongly onto your best
    "gerechten hand" is the right hand. This is a real classic. The right fist to the temple. "Old Shatterhand" from Karl May anyone?
  7. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 4:34pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Good work willaume. Just a few points that jumped me when reading:


    "kün" is the "Kinn" nowadays, and thus the jaw in english. This passage is a description of the typical "movie-style" neckbreak. You grab the opponents head with both hands, one placed on the jaw, the other placed on the back of the head. And then twist like you tried to screw it off.

    The more modern term for this would be "Den Hals umdrehen".
    Hey man
    Thanks for the imput
    Well bearing in mind that we are separated by a common language (aka English).
    About Kun
    I think in that sword equates to cup the chin in your hand with the finger on the face
    For me jaw means the lower maxillary and that is covered by the word “bachen”.

    I think we are saying the same thing it is just a matter of semantics. anyway I agree with the interpretation of the technique.
    Phil
    Last edited by willaume; 4/20/2009 4:37pm at .
  8. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    4/20/2009 5:34pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    [b][i]

    "gerechten hand" is the right hand. This is a real classic. The right fist to the temple. "Old Shatterhand" from Karl May anyone?
    yes
    That one I am pretty sure it is the temples and the right hand (though I have gerechten used in the correct one.)
    So a strike to the temple with the right hand since we are holding him with the left seems logical.

    The other occurrence slufslof/slaf I am not certain at all. Pressing both thumbs in the temples is unpleasant but not that nasty.
    phil
  9. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 12:30am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    Hey man
    Thanks for the imput
    Well bearing in mind that we are separated by a common language (aka English).
    About Kun
    I think in that sword equates to cup the chin in your hand with the finger on the face
    For me jaw means the lower maxillary and that is covered by the word “bachen”.

    I think we are saying the same thing it is just a matter of semantics. anyway I agree with the interpretation of the technique.
    Phil
    Well, it occured later to me, that the "Kinn" actually better translates to chin, not to jaw. My english.

    Its not that much of a difference though. The chin is part of the jaw, which over all is not that big. If you try to grab the chin, or place your hand on it, you actually grab the jaw.

    I guess its helpful to use some descriptions, so as to eliminate mistakes. When I refer to the "jaw", I am talking about the lower, moving part of your chewing-apparatus. The bone holding the lower teeth. The chin is a somewhat pointy spot in the front region of that.


    As for the finger pressure on the temple, I fear that von Ringeck really meant the temple. Which of course means the technique is not exactly a murderously effective one. But the same goes for many other of these examples.

    I mean... try to grab a resisting opponent by his belt and launch a haymaker to his temple... that is not even going to work against an untrained drunkard.

    Same goes for the neck-twist. This one has been discussed over and over (as it regularly pops up in movies) and afaik its consensus that it simply does not work on a resisting opponent.

    I happened to train last evening and talked about this with one of my co-students, who is (besides beeing a seasoned Jiu Jitsu veteran) a chiro-practician (a medical expert for bone and joint issues). His opinion was, that this neck-crank might do some damage (e.g. the victim might feel pain when turning the head for some time) but it would be near impossible to do any fight-stopping damage that way.

    My conclusion from these examples would be, that at least some of the techniques described by von Ringeck and others are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Maybe the old masters tried to look even more "cool" by adding in "secret killer-techniques" into their otherwise sturdy but quite common curriculum, without caring if those "murderstrikes" would actually work? Its not like such methods of advertising would be unheard of in our modern times...
    Last edited by kwan_dao; 4/21/2009 12:33am at .
  10. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 3:14am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Well, it occured later to me, that the "Kinn" actually better translates to chin, not to jaw. My english.

    Its not that much of a difference though. The chin is part of the jaw, which over all is not that big. If you try to grab the chin, or place your hand on it, you actually grab the jaw.

    I guess its helpful to use some descriptions, so as to eliminate mistakes. When I refer to the "jaw", I am talking about the lower, moving part of your chewing-apparatus. The bone holding the lower teeth. The chin is a somewhat pointy spot in the front region of that.


    As for the finger pressure on the temple, I fear that von Ringeck really meant the temple. Which of course means the technique is not exactly a murderously effective one. But the same goes for many other of these examples.

    I mean... try to grab a resisting opponent by his belt and launch a haymaker to his temple... that is not even going to work against an untrained drunkard.

    Same goes for the neck-twist. This one has been discussed over and over (as it regularly pops up in movies) and afaik its consensus that it simply does not work on a resisting opponent.

    I happened to train last evening and talked about this with one of my co-students, who is (besides beeing a seasoned Jiu Jitsu veteran) a chiro-practician (a medical expert for bone and joint issues). His opinion was, that this neck-crank might do some damage (e.g. the victim might feel pain when turning the head for some time) but it would be near impossible to do any fight-stopping damage that way.

    My conclusion from these examples would be, that at least some of the techniques described by von Ringeck and others are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Maybe the old masters tried to look even more "cool" by adding in "secret killer-techniques" into their otherwise sturdy but quite common curriculum, without caring if those "murderstrikes" would actually work? Its not like such methods of advertising would be unheard of in our modern times...
    Hello
    By separate by a language I meant that my English comes from the French and your English come from the German.
    Anyway it does not really matter because our actual understanding is the same.

    I am totally with you about the technique. But I think you are mistaken in believing that it is presented as killing technique.
    That technique is designed as a break against the piece present before
    ie how to break the attack of a guy holding you bellow your arm from the front or trying to do that.
    This is not how to break the neck, it just break its structure so that you can do something,and as such it does the job.

    Bruch meaning is really contextual
    It is either a how you break his structure
    A counter to a given technique
    Or a breaking of bones or articulation (and they are more dislocation, over straining more than actual break.) but then it is usually refered as bain bruch (bone breaker).
    though just to make it easier for us bain can be a leg or a member (aas in an orm or a leg)

    phil
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.