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  1. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 8:45am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    I don't think you should stop teaching. I think you need to also then be training at a real grappling school and transmit techniques as you assimilate them. Not just when you learn them new, but when you fully understand them.
    You said this earlier and I was confused.

    I am training at a judo school. I can triangle and armbar most of the brown belts--and they don't hold back (and I'm not spazzing). My escapes suck, my pinning/top game is bad but getting better, my guard passing sucks, my guard is definitely mediocre, my collar chokes are worthless, and my turtle cracking is poor.

    I hear what you're saying, but I think it would create some weird teaching plans. "Well, this week we're doing jujigatame from rear mount. Last week we did it from top mount. Yes, I know, I haven't shown you how to escape mount, shut up, that's not important. Yet. Yes, I know it was important ten weeks ago when I taught it to Johnny, but I won't teach it to you." Y'know what I mean?
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  2. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 8:52am

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I mean is, don't teach something until you have done it a couple hundred times that's all.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  3. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 8:58am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's been my rule for the past few years, actually. I keep techniques in an open floor (open mat) format--drilling, rolling, sharing but not teaching, with whoever shows up--until I feel comfortable teaching them in class.

    Plus, even if I felt comfortable with (just for example) an armbar from knee-on-belly, I wouldn't teach it in class just because the teach-in-class list is fairly limited. Mount, guard, triangle, side control, armbar from guard, Kimura from guard, back mount, RNC is pretty much it.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  4. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 11:58am


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know Bait the Karateka is a popular game here, but this thread seems a bit misguided. He isn't pulling a DTT -- no claims of anti-grapple, no spastic made-up techniques, no refusal to go train with a real coach, none of it. He inherited a syllabus that includes some judo that they don't practice properly, so he's training under a 6th dan judoka to fix the problems -- both for himself and for his classmates.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    The fact you call it knee mount exactly points to the issue.
    The fact that this was a red flag for you tells me that you don't get out much. From Wikipedia:

    Knee-on-stomach (alternative names or slight variations include knee-on-belly, knee-on-chest, knee-ride, knee mount and uki-gatame, ...)
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    The reason why at least a blue belt makes a better teacher is not jsut in the amount of techniques he may know, but by the fact that he has done them all thousands of times by the point he gets that rank.
    Blue belts have no business teaching grappling, and the only people who think otherwise are blue belts. That said, if it's any consolation to you 1point2's upa is as good as that of a number of blue belts with whom I've rolled. I really don't see a problem with him showing some of his classmates how to get out from under an unskilled GnP -- the sad end to which most karatekas come in shopping mall car parks across the US.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  5. hpr is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 1:49pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm with Jack Rusher in this. Let's see. I know how to play guitar. Am I a Steve Vai style technical god? No. Do I rock like Hendrix? Hell no! Do I have the fluidity of John Petrucci? **** that. Do I claim to be one? Never.

    Can I teach a newbie basic stuff? Hell yes. Even though I might be missing things The Great Gurus torture me dead for I can still show them the rudimentary stuff and let them skip the most typical errors. They'll never get to guru level with my instruction, but most of them get what they want -- basic skills of guitar playing.

    That's what 1point2 seems to be doing. He's giving legitimate techniques. Now, they might be lacking in details that will get you choked out by more experienced grapplers. It isn't snake oil, it's good basic technique.

    I disagree with Hedgehogey. It is better than nothing. Now they know what they should be doing. If they ever get mounted in a match/fight/whatever they won't panic so bad and know what they should be going for. Yes, they are **** out of luck if they are against more experienced grapplers, but they would be even more so if they don't have an inkling of what to do.

    Hell, they are doing karate. Unless they're completely retarded every single one of them knows that if they want to explore grappling deeper they'll have to go a proper grappling school. Yes, they might have to unlearn/relearn stuff, but that's life. You never get anything 100% black belt level correct the first time 1000(00...0) repititions anyway in grappling.
    Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.
  6. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 9:34pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    It's also not something I'm going to bust my butt convincing him of. Two reasons: 1) he absolutely won't do it. 2) I took enough heat getting grappling and hard sparring and no-gi allowed.
    FLAG

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post

    As for the other two options you suggest--A) getting a guest instructor and B) leaving, I guess you just have to believe me when I say that A is out of the question. Sorry. As for B, well, I think that KiwiPhil889 is right. Either the karate students learn zero about aliveness and what a bridging mount escape is, or they see that one instructor teaches live drilling and preaches aliveness, and they know what a mount is, and have drilled the two fundamental escapes from it enough to know that 1) that's the way to do it and 2) it's hard and they can't rely on it yet. No bullshido.
    Two things.

    First, if your head instructor gave you heat getting grappling and hard sparring integrated into the curriculum (for reasons besides "you have no idea what you're doing"), then sorry bro, your school is Bullshido and unless you're getting absolutely phenomenal striking from your Isshin-Ryu training, the only reason I can see for you sticking around is the same creepy sycophantic loyalty that keeps Smithers working for Mr. Burns. The fact that you know better makes your continued presence more Bullshido, not less.

    Second, I need to nip these accusations of stylistic elitism in the bud. We're not saying you're full of **** for teaching something outside Professor Helio's Sacred Canon of Patronizingly Basic Moves. We're saying you're full of **** because you're creating a false dilemma by implying that students have to choose between shitty instruction and no instruction. It is not your responsibility as a white belt in ANYTHING to be teaching, and your own teacher's ignorance excuses nothing. I'm sure you feel "comfortable" teaching the upa; good for you, but it doesn't mean you're qualified to teach, especially when you're the resident grappling authority.

    And because, much like Frankie Muniz, I'm a big fat liar, the third thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    My teacher followed Mr. Musco's lead, teaching mostly compliant drills for standup (about 10 basic throws) in addition to pins (kesagatame, katagatame, mount), locks (haragatame, jujigatame), and chokes (RNC, sangaku and cross-collar mostly). Newaza randori was infrequent but present.

    I teach at my teacher's school. I increased the frequency of the newaza randori, and a few others added to the technical aspects (an ex-college-and-state-level-wrestler with some judo experience is an instructor, for instance).

    As for crappling--we do what we do, and I believe that it's legitimate (via lineage, and through practice) although inferior.
    Skill in any martial art isn't automatically inherited by training under a guy whose instructor used to roll a little bit. Legitimacy doesn't come from lineage, it comes from workable skills, and compliant Judo drills vaguely supervised by a former college wrestler to a class full of karate students is a pretty terrible way to learn grappling. Sure, it could always be worse, but again, why the false choice between shitty instruction and no instruction? Why the resistance to getting a real Judo blackbelt or BJJ purple to teach once a week?
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

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    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  7. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 10:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boyd, either you're not reading my posts, or you're deliberately not engaging them.

    Edit: I realized there's a third logical possibility. You could be a total moron. My apologies.
    Last edited by 1point2; 4/22/2009 11:01pm at .
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  8. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/23/2009 8:46am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    The fact that this was a red flag for you tells me that you don't get out much.
    #1 - Going to wikipedia is no the most reliable source. The most common terminology is knee-on-belly.

    Blue belts have no business teaching grappling, and the only people who think otherwise are blue belts. That said, if it's any consolation to you 1point2's upa is as good as that of a number of blue belts with whom I've rolled. I really don't see a problem with him showing some of his classmates how to get out from under an unskilled GnP -- the sad end to which most karatekas come in shopping mall car parks across the US.
    Er no. I first trained BJJ under a blue belt because there was no black in the area. He would have been a purple if he had a regular instructor to give him rank. And at any rate, I didn't say a blue belt or nothing. I said a judoka, a wrestler or anyone who had put in a high number of reps. It is the experience which counts.

    And so we are back to training against untrained opponents eh? There are alot of untrained people who can drop their body weight in mount.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  9. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/23/2009 8:54am

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    #1 - Going to wikipedia is no the most reliable source. The most common terminology is knee-on-belly.

    Er no. I first trained BJJ under a blue belt because there was no black in the area. He would have been a purple if he had a regular instructor to give him rank. And at any rate, I didn't say a blue belt or nothing. I said a judoka, a wrestler or anyone who had put in a high number of reps. It is the experience which counts.

    And so we are back to training against untrained opponents eh? There are alot of untrained people who can drop their body weight in mount.
    Knee mount is not an unheard-of term. I didn't make it up myself.

    I bolded the instructor who's been helping me and the school with the groundwork.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  10. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/23/2009 9:38am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1p2, i was just replying to Jack's post. I know you have things covered.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
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