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  1. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:21pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Qualified to teach what I teach? Yes. Qualified to teach BJJ level groundwork? Absolutely not. Qualified to teach judo level groundwork? No. Qualified to improve a karate student's ground game? Yes.
    Not really. I think all this can do is instill a false sense of security.

    Part of what I'm saying is that while getting the purple belt to teach would be better, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with not getting the purple belt.
    But you are not getting anyone. You might as well be teaching these kids from a video

    It doesn't violate any Bullshido codes or nothin. It's like a GJJ school showing a stupid version of a jab, cross, and hook before putting gloves on an attacker for a "clinch, takedown, submit versus striking attacker" drill. Good form? Meh. Good enough for rock and roll? Sure.
    Er. Wrong. Most of the gracies actually fought somewhere at some time. I have yet to be in a bjj school that taught poor punching technique. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but I am dealing with concrete items. And just as all my bjj instructors can punch, you CAN'T effectively grapple.

    There is a big difference. Striking for the gracies is essentially a distraction to get to grappling. The inverse is not true for you. You are not butt flopping or upa-ing in order to start punching (form the ground).
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:23pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    I would ask, to what end are you teaching ground work in your class if you're going to show crap? You are taking this as a personal attack. It isn't.
    I hear you. I don't think I'm showing crap--I think I'm showing fundamentals at a competent level. I want karate students to know what mount, guard, side control, knee mount, and back mount are. I want them to have a rudimentary ability to escape inferior positions, use the guard, and submit from dominant positions. That's what I had going into judo, and that's what the brown belts I show this stuff have.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    Do you think your almost a year of judo is anywhere close to a blue belt form a legit bjj school in terms of groundwork? Perhaps this is where part of the problem lies.
    I specifically said I do not think that I am anywhere near blue belt level in another thread, yesterday I think. CMA forum.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:27pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I hear you. I don't think I'm showing crap--I think I'm showing fundamentals at a competent level. I want karate students to know what mount, guard, side control, knee mount, and back mount are. I want them to have a rudimentary ability to escape inferior positions, use the guard, and submit from dominant positions. That's what I had going into judo, and that's what the brown belts I show this stuff have.
    The fact you call it knee mount exactly points to the issue. You can't know what you don't know. What may feel competent to you may be in fact sub par. Unless you yourself are training in a regular program.

    I specifically said I do not think that I am anywhere near blue belt level in another thread, yesterday I think. CMA forum.
    You don't have to be. But someone does. The reason why at least a blue belt makes a better teacher is not jsut in the amount of techniques he may know, but by the fact that he has done them all thousands of times by the point he gets that rank.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  4. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:31pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    ...And just as all my bjj instructors can punch, you CAN'T effectively grapple.

    There is a big difference. Striking for the gracies is essentially a distraction to get to grappling. The inverse is not true for you. You are not butt flopping or upa-ing in order to start punching (form the ground).
    I am upa-ing so I don't get mauled from under mount.

    As for "you can't effectively grapple," at this point, if I didn't think it would bother him, I would ask you to give my judo instructor a call and ask him how my grappling was when I came in from the karate school.

    All you have seen (if you've researched) is me at a judo tournament where newaza is of course not emphasized, and me doing my third no-gi session (ever) with Jack Rusher.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  5. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    The fact you call it knee mount exactly points to the issue. You can't know what you don't know. What may feel competent to you may be in fact sub par. Unless you yourself are training in a regular program.

    You don't have to be. But someone does. The reason why at least a blue belt makes a better teacher is not jsut in the amount of techniques he may know, but by the fact that he has done them all thousands of times by the point he gets that rank.
    Knee on belly vs. knee mount gets your panties in a tizzy? Wow.

    I am in a regular training program...?

    I am not disputing that a blue belt is better. I'm saying that what I teach has legitimate roots, it's not magical or teh deadly, it is not Bullshido.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  6. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 4:11am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    In all seriousness, thanks for engaging the debate.

    Do I think it's fishy? No. I think it's sub-optimal. I want different for my students (my students in his school, as well as my students in my future-school). That's why I'm getting myself qualified.
    Qualified for what? To teach Isshin-Ryu? Because...

    It's also not something I'm going to bust my butt convincing him of. Two reasons: 1) he absolutely won't do it. 2) I took enough heat getting grappling and hard sparring and no-gi allowed.
    ...this should be what tips you off that you're having your glans dipped in warm water. If you "take heat" getting your instructor to allow you to do what is universally accepted as the thing to do on this site, maybe something is wrong, not with you (there are things wrong with you, but this is not it) or where you're at in your training right now. No matter how many times you **** Nately's Whore, she's never going to stop giving you the clap.


    I agree. I will bold all the items that I teach--which means, that I show the maybe 25 people (out of the much-larger school) who are interested in grappling. Not "demo once," not "demo compliant," but as you said, teach and drill and roll.
    What you're telling me is that you leave out important details on a technique you already don't know. You're holding the textbok up and telling me that not only have you not read it, you've torn out half the pages because you don't feel comfortable with being tested on them.

    And frankly I don't believe you're even teaching that correctly. You probably have no fucking idea how to defend a collar choke, i'm almost a hundred percent sure your students leave trailing arms and I don't think you even understand posturing as a concept.


    Qualified to teach what I teach? Yes. Qualified to teach BJJ level groundwork? Absolutely not. Qualified to teach judo level groundwork? No. Qualified to improve a karate student's ground game? Yes.
    You aren't improving anything. You are probably actually making things worse for your poor students by giving them bad habits they're going to have to unlearn if they ever go to a real school.

    Part of what I'm saying is that while getting the purple belt to teach would be better, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with not getting the purple belt.
    Yes. Yes there is. That you need to train under someone qualified in grappling to know how to grapple isn't even something I should have to articulate. We wrote a FAQ for this ****. We had twenty page dramallamas with pizdoff and his brood of pointlessly butterfly-guard-surfing Zerg over this. We stomped on DTT's giant, hydrocephalic head for hours with our pointy stilletoes over this ****.

    That's you right now. You are DTT, teaching spastic combat grippling for we're just doing this to get up man and it's not like we're gonna get in a streetfight with Pe De Pano and oh god why are you doing this reading your posts makes me cringe in sympathetic embarassment.

    It doesn't violate any Bullshido codes or nothin. It's like a GJJ school showing a stupid version of a jab, cross, and hook before putting gloves on an attacker for a "clinch, takedown, submit versus striking attacker" drill. Good form? Meh. Good enough for rock and roll? Sure.
    Nobody actually reccomends that. And like was already said, you're not buttflopping in order to unleash a firestorm of knife hands. At least in the above sample, they're using techniques they are actually qualified to teach (crashing, double legs) instead of teaching slipping and covering from some boxing videos they once watched, which is the equivalent of what you're doing.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  7. KiwiPhil889 is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 4:41am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gotta say that its been an interesting read,but the BJJ guys seem to be saying that because you're not a BJJ school,you're not qualified to teach any grappling?? Which seems a little arrogant,actually no,seems ALOT arrogant.

    They seem to be saying that if someone jumps them and happens to be sitting on them (ie mounted-ish) they are better off NOT knowing how to basic bridge out of it,then knowing how to basic bridge out??.That just seems wrong to me.

    oh,and yeah,seems like the completely wrong discussion for this thread/forum.

    editted for speeling
  8. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 7:44am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phil,
    The problem is that it is not just "do this and they automatically fall off". Actually getting someone off of you who doesn't want to get off isn't that easy. (Even if the attacker has no training). 1p2 could get a wrestler, a judo player, a sambo fighter. It doesn't have to be bjj, just someone with more experience than 1 (not even continuous) year of judo.
    Also if 1p2 made it sound like this was a temporary solution until they could find someone, that also might be fine. But the fact that he thinks they should just go ahead when there are other options just doesn't sound right.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  9. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 8:13am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We're actually at a point where I almost agree with you two. Here's my position:

    The techniques used to be taught as pure judo. They got integrated and over the course of thirty years became compliant waza instead of part of a complete grappling breakfast. The quality of the techniques went down--but at no point did we stop doing them. I learned my bridge escape from my teacher who teaches karate with integrated judo techniques, who learned it from his teacher who teaches karate with integrated judo techniques, who learned it from his teacher who was a judo instructor and who taught judo in his school. So let's just acknowledge that I have the right to teach these techniques. Where do you think someone should have stomped their fist and said, "Hell no, I won't teach this technique!"?

    As for the other two options you suggest--A) getting a guest instructor and B) leaving, I guess you just have to believe me when I say that A is out of the question. Sorry. As for B, well, I think that KiwiPhil889 is right. Either the karate students learn zero about aliveness and what a bridging mount escape is, or they see that one instructor teaches live drilling and preaches aliveness, and they know what a mount is, and have drilled the two fundamental escapes from it enough to know that 1) that's the way to do it and 2) it's hard and they can't rely on it yet. No bullshido. No lies. No airs of defeating wrestlers or equivalence to blue belts. Just "hey, fighting isn't all standup, this is how you escape from this position, don't think you can do it without drilling and rolling for at least a few months."

    It's simply not reasonable, as I see it, to recommend that I stop teaching mount just because BJJ does it better. While I feel it's reasonable to leave the school, I think I'm doing more good where I am. By the way, do you think every judo school teaches mount in that much detail?

    (I'll give you a hint: no.)
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  10. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2009 8:36am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think you should stop teaching. I think you need to also then be training at a real grappling school and transmit techniques as you assimilate them. Not just when you learn them new, but when you fully understand them.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
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