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  1. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 1:51pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So you think you can teach grappling after "the equivalent of a year of judo"?


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 1:56pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe I'm being unclear. I'll clarify:

    Humble self: We do limited groundwork. I am seeking outside instruction in order to raise the level of skill in the limited grappling that we teach. We don't pretend to be a grappling or judo school.

    Ire raised: Why do you think you have a motherfucking monopoly on the the ground? No, my groundwork isn't awesome. But when did it become a sin to say, "we're a karate school, so this is just skimming the surface, but here's a bridge escape from mount." Is it now not kosher for a karate student to know what the mount is? Shut the **** up.

    I didn't do a year of judo, wake up one day and open a judo school, fuckwit. Do you have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference here? I was trained in karate that had judo techniques in it from a few lineage-generations ago, when the guy incorporated judo into the Isshinryu curriculum. I was made an instructor in the karate, so taught those techniques. As a smart individual, I noticed that the groundwork was not as good as it could be with proper training. I engaged in better training methods (more newaza randori, instruction from the wrestler, alive drilling, realistic feedback), popularized that activity within the school, and sought out actual judo instruction outside the school. What is your problem?

    I showed you the historical reasons why we teach groundwork legitimately. I explained how we honestly evaluate it--and that's how I present it to the students. What would you have me do? Burn my teacher's school to the ground because it's not BJJ?

    There's a fundamental problem here with the way HH, as I see it, understands Bullshido. He thinks that since BJJ and judo and SAMBO do it better, karate can't legitimately do it. He's wrong. Poor technique is neither bullshido nor McDojo, it's poor technique, and it needs correcting. I'm correcting it.

    The bottom line: Do we have verified instruction for the judo waza that we teach? Yes. Do we make outrageous claims? No. Do we advertise ourselves as more capable than we are? No. Do we train grappling as well as a judo or BJJ school? No. But we're a karate school, so why is that a problem? We train some grappling because it made its way into the curriculum. In my view, the quality of that technique was poor--so I am doing something about it.

    As an instructor in the school, I'm doing what I can to make the training better, to therefore make the students better. Would I be better if I just left and trained BJJ? Yes. Would the school be better? No. So which course of action does more to advance the goals of Bullshido.net?
    Last edited by 1point2; 4/21/2009 2:41pm at .
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 2:49pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can we get this part of the thread moved to the JMA discussion forum? Or elsewhere? It certainly doesn't belong in this guy's club thread.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  4. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 3:10pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Maybe I'm being unclear. I'll clarify:

    {some stuff left out, but i am responding to the whole thing}

    As an instructor in the school, I'm doing what I can to make the training better, to therefore make the students better. Would I be better if I just left and trained BJJ? Yes. Would the school be better? No. So which course of action does more to advance the goals of Bullshido.net?
    You can't find a bjj blue belt to pay $15-20/hr to teach some intro class?
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  5. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 3:19pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not in charge of the school, and no the head instructor is not amenable to that.

    But the question remains--to what end?
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  6. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 3:44pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To the end of not having someone who doesn't know what they are doing teaching groundwork.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  7. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 3:48pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OMG a karate guy was shown an upa, run and hide.

    You're going to have to try harder than that.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  8. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 3:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not in charge of the school, and no the head instructor is not amenable to that.
    Does this not strike you as at all fishy? This means you, personally, mister Wan-poynt-too, not some imaginary Platonic ideal audience. Not the fourth wall. Do you personally not see it as at all fishy that you are teaching defensive grappling with the equivalent of a year in Judo because your instructor refuses to hire a BJJer? Is his ego threatened somehow? It's not like this is terribly expensive. I'm a purple and i'd do an all day session for 40$.

    But the question remains--to what end?
    Because grappling is really fucking complicated. That's one of the things we love about it, how much depth it has to it, but it also means that unqualified instruction is almost always worse than no instruction at all. Going off your own example (bridging/upa from mount), off the top of my head with ten minutes before I have to go to work:

    Step 1: You need to force him forward and basing. Knee in the ass or mini bridges by popping your hips. Also you need to free at least one grapevine (i'm of the school that it's not entirely neccesary to trap the foot before you bridge because you can use it to open space for knee and elbow escapes, but some people think you do). Also you need to make sure he's over your hips, you can't bridge if he's in high mount, so pushing the hips while explaining that you never extend your hand upward towards his face (maybe a quick armbar demo so they feel it).

    Step 2: Trapping the basing side hand. This is where you have to explain about chokes and above all get them not letting go of hip control or afraid of bridging even if they're panicking because their neck's being attacked. Then grips to buy time for your neck (inside to outside swim to defend double collar for instance, with a quick explanation of establishing the overhook and keeping your arm in so you don't get armbarred).

    Step 3: The bridge itself. Heels to your butt, raise and go in the direction of the trapped arm. Begginers tend to trail their arms, so you have to train that out of them.

    Step 4: Followup. Begginers are often so happy to have escaped that they walk right into a guard sub. Quick go over of posture and/or stacking might be neccesary. Then there's the inevitable point where they can't break his base and start to get frustrated, breathing hard, faces reddening. Then give them the second idea by showing how they opened space for knee and elbow or shrimping.

    So you have to have them work escaping with resistance.

    Then you have to make sure they remember it during rolling and don't make any of the abovementioned mistakes.

    Super Bonus Edit: And then there's changing the grips for no-gi. Then there's doing it with punches in MMA.

    Do you honestly think you're qualified to teach this ****? Honestly?
    Last edited by Hedgehogey; 4/21/2009 3:56pm at .


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  9. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:03pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would ask, to what end are you teaching ground work in your class if you're going to show crap? You are taking this as a personal attack. It isn't.

    My not so super edit bonus
    Do you think your almost a year of judo is anywhere close to a blue belt form a legit bjj school in terms of groundwork? Perhaps this is where part of the problem lies.
    Last edited by cyrijl; 4/21/2009 4:05pm at .
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  10. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2009 4:18pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    Does this not strike you as at all fishy? This means you, personally, mister Wan-poynt-too, not some imaginary Platonic ideal audience. Not the fourth wall. Do you personally not see it as at all fishy that you are teaching defensive grappling with the equivalent of a year in Judo because your instructor refuses to hire a BJJer? Is his ego threatened somehow? It's not like this is terribly expensive. I'm a purple and i'd do an all day session for 40$.
    In all seriousness, thanks for engaging the debate.

    Do I think it's fishy? No. I think it's sub-optimal. I want different for my students (my students in his school, as well as my students in my future-school). That's why I'm getting myself qualified.

    It's also not something I'm going to bust my butt convincing him of. Two reasons: 1) he absolutely won't do it. 2) I took enough heat getting grappling and hard sparring and no-gi allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    Because grappling is really fucking complicated. That's one of the things we love about it, how much depth it has to it, but it also means that unqualified instruction is almost always worse than no instruction at all. Going off your own example (bridging/upa from mount), off the top of my head with ten minutes before I have to go to work:
    I agree. I will bold all the items that I teach--which means, that I show the maybe 25 people (out of the much-larger school) who are interested in grappling. Not "demo once," not "demo compliant," but as you said, teach and drill and roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    Step 1: You need to force him forward and basing. Knee in the ass or mini bridges by popping your hips. Also you need to free at least one grapevine (i'm of the school that it's not entirely neccesary to trap the foot before you bridge because you can use it to open space for knee and elbow escapes, but some people think you do). Also you need to make sure he's over your hips, you can't bridge if he's in high mount, so pushing the hips while explaining that you never extend your hand upward towards his face (maybe a quick armbar demo so they feel it).

    Step 2: Trapping the basing side hand. This is where you have to explain about chokes and above all get them not letting go of hip control or afraid of bridging even if they're panicking because their neck's being attacked. Then grips to buy time for your neck (inside to outside swim to defend double collar for instance, with a quick explanation of establishing the overhook and keeping your arm in so you don't get armbarred).

    Step 3: The bridge itself. Heels to your butt, raise and go in the direction of the trapped arm. Begginers tend to trail their arms, so you have to train that out of them.

    Step 4: Followup. Begginers are often so happy to have escaped that they walk right into a guard sub. Quick go over of posture and/or stacking might be neccesary. Then there's the inevitable point where they can't break his base and start to get frustrated, breathing hard, faces reddening. Then give them the second idea by showing how they opened space for knee and elbow or shrimping.

    So you have to have them work escaping with resistance.

    Then you have to make sure they remember it during rolling and don't make any of the abovementioned mistakes.


    Super Bonus Edit: And then there's changing the grips for no-gi. Then there's doing it with punches in MMA.

    Do you honestly think you're qualified to teach this ****? Honestly?
    Qualified to teach what I teach? Yes. Qualified to teach BJJ level groundwork? Absolutely not. Qualified to teach judo level groundwork? No. Qualified to improve a karate student's ground game? Yes.

    Part of what I'm saying is that while getting the purple belt to teach would be better, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with not getting the purple belt. It doesn't violate any Bullshido codes or nothin. It's like a GJJ school showing a stupid version of a jab, cross, and hook before putting gloves on an attacker for a "clinch, takedown, submit versus striking attacker" drill. Good form? Meh. Good enough for rock and roll? Sure.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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