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  1. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 8:22am

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    New School, New Rules, Adaptations

    I posted this in DHS since I'd like some input,confirmation or a "you're just a wimp" from people who have been training for a while.

    So, I joined a local Gracie Barra affiliate two weeks ago since I wasn't getting enough mat time at my normal school. This thread sort of follows off of the discussion about the GB belt ranking thread. There seems to be a drive towards a standard outlook of ranking and points in tournaments.

    The new school I just joined is heavily focused on tournaments. I was told by the instructor that this is how GB got is fame. This is fine. He believes all of his students should be in the tournaments. That is also fine. However, almost all of the training seems to be directed towards that end. So, certain moves are not allowed in class - some limited by rank some outrightly banned. I have never seen a school this focused on points even when rolling/drilling in class. I have a high blue if not purple level guard and we constantly run drills where I lose if my back hits the ground. To me, this would seem to limit the guy's game. (the purple comments comes from others not me, i think i barely have a blue top/bottom game). If someone is bulldogging me back, I am wasting more enegry trying to push forward and avoid falling (which is almost inevitable is someone has a good shot.) Since they get me on my back, they have a false sense of confidence as well since sweeping does not equal control which does not equal dominant position, etc.

    This is similar to what has happened in the history of judo. No leg locks, slicers, neck cranks,etc. The result of such training seems to me to lead to a few issues.

    1 - Lack of finesse.
    2 - Lazy Limbs.
    3 - Focus on rules.

    Since the focus is always on points the general game at the GB school is very top heavy and strength driven. The game of the students is very strong but seems very narrow. Limbs are often out stretched crying for elbow slicers, legs are placed near the head when guard passing. Alot of focus is place on gripping the Gi. For those who know me, that may seem odd since I love the Gi, but I think it can be relied on to the detriment of overall game development. I normally hit submissions from odd angles off of transitions and gaps in scrambles. I caught my judo instructor with a carni off of a transition.

    But please don't get me wrong. I like the new school. I am hoping the trounament driven atmosphere will help with my aggression and reduce my guard pulling habits. (I realize my game needs to evolve as well)

    For example, at NAGA, most everything is legal in the intermediate division (i forgot beginner's restrictions). And while I worry about certain injuries, I try to maintain focus on all of my limbs even while training. I also am willing to give up position to learn from escaping since at my normal gym the goal is surviving and winning, points are a side effect of this, not the main goal. You shouldn't fear being put on your back. Given the chance, I'll cover until I can work into something rather than just sweep to get on top, get my points and then stay in position.

    I don't mean either that this is really a sport vs street idea. At my old gym the students do very well in competition. It would be hard to point at the GB school and say they have done better than the SBGi guys. The SBGi guys have a more well rounded game and can adapt more easily to changes in the game of others. The GB guys can steamroll over opponents and push the pace. At a certain level I realize this is a matter of preference.

    I guess I was looking for others who may be in the same position. When I started training in 2001 with Tim Burrill http://www.timburrill.com, there just weren't many competitions so there was little to no focus on points. I am wondering if points is where Gi BJJ is heading, or is it there and I just somehow missed the boat.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 8:35am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How much No-Gi do the GB guys do? Are you only seeing half of their game because you don't do the No-Gi class?
  3. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 8:45am

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well the instructor just opend this school. He used to have a no-gi night which i am hoping he starts up again. I haven't been to their open mat yet. At my SBGi school we have one night of no-gi and open mat is usually half nad half depending on who shows up and who has clean Gis

    The focus on points is coming more from the sutdents than the instructor. The instructor's focus on winning seems to come more from submission. I don't think he has ever actually talked about points. But I wonder if the focus on winning tournaments is what drives his students focuson on points.

    I realize there is a certain practicality to it all. In order to win in a limited timeframe points are very important.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  4. Gabetuno is offline
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    Woah. Alex Van Halen got huge.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 9:04am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand the point of training with rulesets like "you lose if your back hits the mat". Coming from a wrestling background, that's just another kind of situational, just like you reset if you get passed or if you recover guard, etc.

    However, the limitations of moves to rank is, in my opinion, a mistake. Not everyone rolls the same way, and doing this just may delay the inevitable of someone finding a particular game that they play well, not to mention putting them behind in playing it versus another school. I.e. if a purple belt discovers he likes playing off of leg locks only when he becomes a purple belt, he now has to develop that game behind the times, as supposed to guy X from another school who's been allowed to train a similar game since he was a non-spazzing white belt.

    That's my two cents. I actually think, other than that, doing a competition oriented sort of deal is good for you, because people can sometimes get comfortable, and therefore lazy in their rolls when there is no impending threat of fighting a guy who wants to rip your arm off.

    FYI, Daymon is now going to be teaching a competition oriented class on Sundays, so everybody is starting to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcastro
    He screams like a little girl as the pain ripples through his arm, shoots up into his brain, and now your dick is hard.


  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 9:15am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I asked because it sounds a little like our Gi Class. We train 50/50 Tuesday is Gi Thursday is No-Gi. People tend to only go for twisting leg locks and slicers on Thursday. Our coach never told us to but we basically stick to NAGA rules for Gi and No-Gi. People have heel hooked me in the Gi class but it doesn't happen with regularity like it does in No-Gi.

    Points in class is not mentioned with regularity unless it is a week or two before a tournament or we are doing some sort of drill.
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 9:30am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cyrijl, are we talking about Boston BJJ? I've never been there, but obviously Kenny got his black belt there and is doing very well. Did you switch completely, or just join a second gym? If its the latter I would treat this like a whole seperate sport, like if you started cross-training SAMBO or Judo. My impression from TD's is that you are are more of a hybrid grappler than a strict (gi based) BJJ guy, so I would look at this as mastering a specific grappling sport for its own crosstraining benefits. Kenny's success is a pretty good indicator that training there will not screw up your no-gi grappling.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. M.C. is offline
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    This is all I do: girls, photography and BJJ...

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 9:32am

    Join us... or die
     Style: KeyboardHero/CameraJutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JNP move my post if you think so...

    I have been training at several schools in the last year, with a lot of different rules. Some don't allow for neck cranks, leg locks but allow biceps slicers and calf crushs (Renzo). Others allow everything(vale tudo / MMA in Germany) and now here(Lotus Cetepe) you are allowed to neck crank the **** out of everybody as a a first day student but leg locks (purple), straight ankle hooks(blue) and bicep slicers (not at all) etc. are off limits.
    While I think the way they argue this (it is to dangerous or you have to focus on the upper body first) is kind of retarded from my point of view, I adapted to it and have learned to use certain subs as sweeps or just put on the sub but then let go and keep going. It eventually helped me to improve certain areas of my game (though it took me a while) because it forced me to transition/sweep from positions where usually my game ended.
    I say "roll" with it, keep your old game in mind but expand it to this "new" rule set and see where it takes you, it might open a new path in your game.
    Sometimes you lose and sometimes the other guy wins.

    At this point I don't owe anybody an explenation.

    Schools I trained at:
    Lotus Club Cetepe Liberdade Sao Paulo
    Renzo Gracie NYC
    New York Combat Sambo
  8. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 10:19am

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's my two cents. I actually think, other than that, doing a competition oriented sort of deal is good for you, because people can sometimes get comfortable, and therefore lazy in their rolls when there is no impending threat of fighting a guy who wants to rip your arm off.
    The competition focus is one of the reasons why I chose the school. But I think that is a spearate issue as worrying about points wile drilling. I have gotten a bit lazy in terms of striving for dominance. I wish I could come back down to Tim's but the schedule doesn't fit at all since I work in Boston.

    Cyrijl, are we talking about Boston BJJ?
    No, I thought about them, but I didn't want to take the train home smelly. It is along ride form BostonBjj to downtown to the train home. I started at Gracie Barra New England. It is a very good school. Just very different from my own.

    I understand the dangerousness of certain techniques, but I think a good instructor will foster the position before submission attitude. Leg locks, slicers and cranks generally hurt people because the attack has no control of his opponent, grabs something and goes for gold. I just picked up Brandon Quick's Fade To Black DVD on chokes. If I just tried them rolling, without the requisite positional dominance, they'd all end up cranks. Instructors should tell people not to use submissions they don't understand. When Matt Thornton was here last fall he said one of the problems with leg locks is:

    1- People get hurt (duh)
    2 - People tap too quickly which gives the attacker a false sense of confidence which leads to attackers using them more and more just for a tap

    I do understand why. I just wonder about the ultimate end of such practice.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  9. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 11:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are there really two Gracie Barra schools around here?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. Gabetuno is offline
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    Woah. Alex Van Halen got huge.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 12:02pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    The competition focus is one of the reasons why I chose the school. But I think that is a spearate issue as worrying about points wile drilling. I have gotten a bit lazy in terms of striving for dominance. I wish I could come back down to Tim's but the schedule doesn't fit at all since I work in Boston.
    I understand. I work in Boston too, but I live in Prov. You should email me or Tim, he's pretty much got something or other going down there 7 days a week at all times of the day. There is even a Wednesday morning 5:30am class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcastro
    He screams like a little girl as the pain ripples through his arm, shoots up into his brain, and now your dick is hard.


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