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  1. taijirichm is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 4:25pm


     

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    Kintanon,

    You are the one that mentioned mysticism, not me. I don't do mysticism either, I do realize that there is more to Martial Arts than fighting. I don't mean specific foreign culture either.
  2. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 4:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    Rivington, how is that punting? I can write them out here if you want. In fact, I will later.
    It's punting because simply listing principles, which are often expressed in occult language, is meaningless without discussion. For example:

    Taiji is born from wuji; it is the mother of yin and yang.

    This is a philosophical abstraction at least several degrees removed from the specifics of a physical encounter such as push hands. It can mean virtually anything, as at one point we are still and then from stillness we begin to move. So what? How aren't the tuishou participants not doing that? Or does it mean something else? If so, what?
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 4:51pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    Kintanon,

    You are the one that mentioned mysticism, not me. I don't do mysticism either, I do realize that there is more to Martial Arts than fighting. I don't mean specific foreign culture either.
    You forgot the word now.

    I'm also waiting for your statistics. I'm glad you came to answer questions. Please Answer them.

    If you are going to pick apart every little answer, mysticism really, while avoiding discussion, there is a sub-forum you will not like.
  4. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 5:06pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    The only non-principled point that I see awarded at first glance of this video is at 8:30 where the red competitor was over committed, and lost his balance. As far as I can tell, he was awarded the point.

    You mean the obviously contrived part in which the two players were cooperating to give the senior student of the school the point and the win? Yeah, good eye you got there, ace.
  5. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do you feel is part of Martial Arts that is useful, appropriate to the topic of learning how to fight, and is not mysticism then? Because remember, Martial Arts is FIRST AND FOREMOST about learning to fight. Anything else is ancillary to that goal.
  6. taijirichm is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:27pm


     

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    Taiji Principles

    The principles that make taijiquan a seperate art. These are drawn from the Taiji Lun, attributed to Zhang Sanfeng. These are not written in occult language, but are written in old chinese. There are many translations, my teacher encourages us to study them in the original chinese to explore the depth of their meaning. I will include the translations of Jou Tsung Hwa and Chen Manching.

    1. JTH - In any action, the whole body whould be light and agile(Qing and ling). One should feel that all of the body's joints are connected with full linkage.

    CMC - In any action the entire body should be light and agile and all of its parts connected like pearls on a thread.

    2. JTH - Qi should be stirred. The spirit of vitality (shen) shouold be concentrated inwardly.

    CMC - The chi should be cultivated; the spirit of vitality should be retained internally and not exposed externally.

    3. JTH - Do not show any deficiency, neither concavity nor convexity in movement. Do not show disconnected movement.

    CMC - There should be no hollows and projections and no severence...

    4. JTH - The jin is rooted in the feet, bursts out in the legs, is controlled by the waist, and functions through the fingers. From the feet to the legs, legs to the waist all should move as a unit. By moving as a unit, one can advance or retreat with precise timeing and the most advantageous position.

    CMC - Sound boxing is rooted in the feet, develops in the legs, is directed by the waist, and functions through the fingers. The feet, legs, and waist must act as one. So that when advancing and retreating you an use both your opponents defects and your own superior position.

    5. JTH - If precise timing and good position are not achieved and the body does not move as a unit, the the waist and legs need more development. They may not be strong or flexible enough. This often shows when moving up or down, left or right, backwards or fowards.

    CMC - If you fail to gain these advantages, your body will be disordered and confused. To correct this fault you must adjust your legs and waist. The same principle applies irrespective of direction or attitude.

    6. JTH - Use internal conciousness, not external forms.

    CMC - Taiji hinges entirely upon the players coniousness(i) rather than external muscular force (li)

    7. JTH - Where there is something up, there must be something down. Where there is something foward, there must be something backwards. Where there is something left, there must be something right. If one intends to move up, one must simultaneously show a contrary tendency(downwards), just as one who wishes to pull a tree up pushes downwards first to loosen the roots, so that it can be easily uprooted.

    CMC - When attacking above, you must not forget below; when striking left, you must pay attention right; and when advancing, you must have regard for retreating. This principle applies for both attacker and the defender. If you want to pull something upward, you must first push downward, causing the root to be severed and the object to be immediately toppled.

    8. JTH - One must distinguish substandtiality from insubstantiality. Where there is substantiality there must be insubstantiality. In all ways, one has to distinguish one from the other.

    CMC - The substantial and insubstantial must be clearly differentiated. Every part of the body has both a substantial and an insubstantial aspect at any given time. The entire body also has this feature if considered as one unit.

    9. JTH - The whole body should be linked together through every joint; do not show any interuptions.

    CMC - All parts of the body must be threaded together, not allowing any severance.

    10. JTH - Chang quan (long fist), like a great river, flows unceasingly.

    CMC - Taijiquan is also called chang quan because it flows unceasingly like a great river.

    11. JTH - The bagua or eight gates of taijiquan are ward-off, roll-back, press, push, pull down, split, elbow, shoulder strike. The first four stikes represent the four directions: south, north, west and east. The last four gates in turn reflect the four corners: southwest, northeast, southeast, and northwest. The wubu, or five steps of taijiquan are advance, retreat, look to the left, gaze to the right, and central equilibrium. These steps equate to the five elements; metal, wood, water, fire, and earth. The eight gates plus the five steps are termed the Taijiquan Thirteen Postures.

    CMC - The eight postures of Taijiquan equate to the Bagua of the I Ching. Likewise the first four postures represent the four directions:south, north, west, and east. The last four postures in turn reflect the four corner: southeast, northwest, southwest, and northeast. The five attitudes of Taijiquan are advance, retreat, look left, gaze right and central equilibrium, and equate to the five elements of Chinese philosophy: metal, wood, fire, and earth. Thus the eight postures plus the five attitudes are termed the taijiquan thirteen postures.

    I did not say they were simple, just that they are not occult. They are pretty specific, and not seperable from Taoist philosophy. If an art does not conform to these principle, it cannot be termed taijiquan, equally, any art (Karate, Jujitsu, BJJ, etc.) that when practiced accordingly could be considered taijiquan.
  7. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:33pm

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    What do you feel is part of Martial Arts that is useful, appropriate to the topic of learning how to fight, and is not mysticism then? Because remember, Martial Arts is FIRST AND FOREMOST about learning to fight. Anything else is ancillary to that goal.
    This sounds like it'll brew into a derail.

    Taiji has had cultivational/health-related aspects from the very beginning, and these aspects are fundamental to taiji. Do they sound "mystical"? Sure--very few things created in the seventeenth century had twenty-first century scientific bases. Breathing and stretching exercises remain pretty handy for fighting, for general physical health, and the general mitigation of stress reactions however.

    If we're talking taiji, making some general comment about what martial arts are supposed to be for or looking up dictionary definitions of the term "martial arts" isn't going to get us anywhere.

    Let's stick with the Chinese push-hands competitions and what "principles" might be defied in them. So far the guy complaining about Chinese tuishou bouts has managed to identify exactly zero such violations in eight minutes of competition and one in the taiji equivalent of a worked pro wrestling match.

    So we're doing pretty well, I'd say...
  8. taijirichm is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:33pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    What do you feel is part of Martial Arts that is useful, appropriate to the topic of learning how to fight, and is not mysticism then? Because remember, Martial Arts is FIRST AND FOREMOST about learning to fight. Anything else is ancillary to that goal.
    Why don't we just call it learning to fight then, or fighting styles?
  9. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post

    I did not say they were simple, just that they are not occult.
    You don't know what "occult" means.
  10. taijirichm is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:45pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Let's stick with the Chinese push-hands competitions and what "principles" might be defied in them. So far the guy complaining about Chinese tuishou bouts has managed to identify exactly zero such violations in eight minutes of competition and one in the taiji equivalent of a worked pro wrestling match.

    So we're doing pretty well, I'd say...
    Not really.

    Have you watched the first two videos in this thread? That was the initial point. In those videos, points were clearly awarded for non-taiji "applications". granted they were lower level players, as were the american players on the videos. I have competed in the competition with american rules and have seen use of "appropriate force". That does not mean "limited" force.

    So, the conversation at the beginning was if the Chinese competitions are superior to the american. My answer is still no.

    The reason I feel the US standards are better is because they at least eliminate actions that are not in alignment with taijiquan principles.

    In all honesty, I don't believe that push hands is the appropriate exercise for competition, it is a learning environment. That battle has been lost already, and I realize the benefit of "sport" and competition for proving and bettering the art.
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