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  1. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:10pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a problem with the dialogue here, one side says American rules disallow certain aspects, the other side says they don't disallow those aspects. That seems like something which can very quickly be solved. Would the claimant who says the American rules disallow certain Taiji principles please list the rules and the principles they disallow? That would move this debate along another step I think. If that has already been done it might be necessary to clarify that position so that TaijiRich can address it.
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:20pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    Off topic, I have yet to set up a strawman argument. (TomKagan, this is an example of an ad hominem statement.)
    LOL, no it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    Ok, so ala Kagan, falling is objective, losing your balance is subjective. Hmmm. I agree, lets keep it objective, though if I visibly loose my balance, whether I fall or not, I have visibly lost my balance. That is objective. I though don't think that the principles are abstract. I know that the three or four of you do.

    You have not definitively lost your balance if there is no objective CONSEQUENCE to looking like you've lost your balance.

    YOU KNOW you might have been truly off balance. No one else would know if you were instead just screwing around by acting like a drunken Kung Fu practititioner.

    ... unless they could read your mind. Is that what US judges do? Do they do the W trick of diplomacy by looking into your eyes and knowing your Tai Chi heart is pure?
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 4/08/2009 4:23pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:24pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    I have read the rules, I have not seen any explicit forbidding of any of these. Not sure what basis you are using to determine that five of the eight are dissallowed.
    Again, all already explained in exacting detail.





    I could have sworn that an meant push.
    Can't tell the difference between ji (push or crowd) and an (press downward structurally with weight), eh taiji man? No surprises there.



    I see no steepling by definition. For example, a competitor who leans on his/her opponent in a posture that would not be stable if the opponent were not being used for support is “bracing” or “steepleing,” and should receive a negative mark.


    Sounds like a personal problem. An is not some invincible posture, when you are putting your mass on something, when you create a structure that pours one's weight down on another, stability can be compromised...by the opponent. At any rate, check out 2:50-2:55 of the Pushing the Issue vid. A steepling violation is called despite the fact that when red moves away, white keeps his posture thus proving that it wasn't even steepling by that definition.


    The rules even state that, though it isn't part of push hands.


    I pointed out were violating principles was rewarded, fixed or not. That was the question.
    No, you actually refused to point out where this happened.

    see the above video for less stop and go, you should not only use fixed step competitions...that is a logical fallacy, comparing apples to oranges.
    I've never done any such thing.



    Sorry I don't have time to specifically find all eight jins in video, you should be able to see the similarity between the moving step push hands and the videos you are watching. The skill level is not as high, but they aren't chen's either.
    Well yes, as it should take a year or two for you to be able to differentiate between ji and an, I agree that you don't have enough time. However, since you cannot even tell the difference between ji and an or worked and competition, you should probably simply acknowledge that your opinions are not credible and keep them to yourself.
  4. taijirichm is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:25pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I would recommend against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    YOU KNOW you might have been truly off balance. No one else would know if you were instead just screwing around by acting like a drunken Kung Fu practititioner.
    TomKagan, thanks for inserting some humor. I genuinely laughed at that.

    Seriously, what is your definition of ad hominem? We obviously disagree. Mine is based on the latin origin to the man, referring to when you attack the person not the actual debate. Ie. You are wrong about x, so you have no credibility to argue about y.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:25pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post


    This whole conversation is to dissprove the pushing the issue video. In it, the chinese footage clearly shows points being awarded when principles were violated.
    Yet, here you sit refusing to explain what you feel they violate.

    No, a list doesn't count. You named specific instances so, they need a specific answer to be debated. Not OMG they violate the principles here are all 264333425325532643624 I win.

    Right back to square one.


    Sorry I don't have time to specifically find all eight jins in video, you should be able to see the similarity between the moving step push hands and the videos you are watching. The skill level is not as high, but they aren't chen's either.
    ?????

    Wow.
  6. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:29pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    TomKagan, thanks for inserting some humor. I genuinely laughed at that.

    Seriously, what is your definition of ad hominem? We obviously disagree. Mine is based on the latin origin to the man, referring to when you attack the person not the actual debate. Ie. You are wrong about x, so you have no credibility to argue about y.
    It would be more precisely stated as an attack on some aspect of the persons character which is irrelevant to the current discussion. For example if I claimed that because you beat your wife your opinions on Taiji should be ignored that would be an adhominem attack.
    Just calling you an idiot isn't really an adhominem because I'm not attacking any of your beliefes, character, or actions. I'm just insulting you. For an attack to truly be an adhominem one must attempt to tie an irrelevant facet of a persons life to the current debate in a detrimental manner. Thus moving the debate away from the subject and onto the character of your opponent.
  7. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:38pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    . Would the claimant who says the American rules disallow certain Taiji principles please list the rules and the principles they disallow?
    This was done in Post #68. You may not be conversant with the jins (which are principles as well as "energies"), so to sum up.

    Use of hard shoving and fajin, while legitimate in combat taijiquan, have no place within these limited events, and should receive negative marks.
    No hard shoving == greatly reduced ji (pushing/crowding), no kao ("shoulder" or bodychecks), no zhao (elbow)

    2. Jerking or pulling forcibly


    No jerking/pulling= no cai (to pluck or uproot)


    3. Double grabbing (gripping the opponent with both hands)
    5. Arm entrapment (a milder form of joint locking, see “Serious Personal Violations”)


    no double grapping/entrapment==no lieh (splitting)

    There ya go. Sure, anyone can point to some random bumping or stumbling around and call those things the jin in action, but that's not going to go very far with anyone who has ever felt these things. Same with the nonsense about hooking. See 3:55 of Pushing the Issue for a hooking violation call, and then compare it to the tuishou vids I posted. Taichirichm will insist that the latter isn't hooking (arm wrapped around the back) but if the former is hooking, the latter must be hooking.



  8. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:43pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now, TaijiRich, if you could explain how these rules do not prohibit the activities that they very clearly appear to prohibit, preferably backed up by a video which shows the techniques being applied in a recognizable manner and not penalized that would go far towards supporting your assertion. Otherwise Rivington appears to be correct that, as described, the american rules prohibit several actions that seems to be core tenents of Taiji. Since I know nothing about Taiji I can neither agree nor disagree with him except based on the evidence in this thread. Which at this point indicates that he is correct.
  9. taijirichm is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:52pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ji and An

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Sounds like a personal problem. An is not some invincible posture, when you are putting your mass on something, when you create a structure that pours one's weight down on another, stability can be compromised...by the opponent.

    Well yes, as it should take a year or two for you to be able to differentiate between ji and an, I agree that you don't have enough time. However, since you cannot even tell the difference between ji and an or worked and competition, you should probably simply acknowledge that your opinions are not credible and keep them to yourself.
    Never said an was an invincible posture.

    An 4th tone - when related to the bagua trigram li would correspond to "hold something back, restrain, control"


    Ji 3rd tone - when related to the bagua trigram Kan means "squeeze/press, as in squeeze in"

    I certainly can apply both in appropriate situations.
  10. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2009 4:54pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by taijirichm View Post
    I am not a video repository, but this is some video of the national competition.

    YouTube - PUSH HANDS COMPETITION...
    Thanks for the video. Unfortunately, the audio is so poor I cannot tell what the refs are saying when they make calls.

    Another thing worth noting: this video comes from Tai Chi LI, the sister school of Patience Tai Chi in Brooklyn. Patience Tai Chi produced the "Pushing the Issue" video. (You can see the obnoxious judge from the documentary calling another match in the background of the video here). That is, the video you are pointing out to highlight the benefits of US ruleset was made by the people who are leading the charge against the US rulset.
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