Convince Me That Silat Doesn't Suck Completely

[Hesperus]

Secrecy in this context is retarded. People don't premeditate murder and make it convenient for your secret moves, whatever they may be. Unless it's how to defend getting clocked in the back of the head with a pipe wrench, being shot in your sleep or something of that ilk, I don't think secrecy is going to dissuade murder.

[Hedgehogey]

Jim_Jude-

You, personally, are not a third world person living in a state of occupation by an imperial power that thinks of you and your culture as childlike buffoons at best and barbarians to be culled at worst. You are not indonesian. Indonesia itself is probably nothing like your portrayal of it. It is a modern country with godamn buses and internet cafes. The place you think you're getting your training from? It doesn't exist.
You think the third world is Ravnica: a place where secretive guilds of assasins teach arcane methods of brutal killing and have bloody duels on the streets that end in thirty seconds with somebody with their throat torn out and eyeballs shredded. Unless you're training in the fucking Irian Jaya, chances are your knife waving hasn't been used on anyone since your teacher's teacher's teacher was alive.

I was a month as a human rights observer in a Central American conflict zone. I hitchiked around Puerto Rico. I can tell you that the third world in your imagination is a ridiculous, exoticized abstraction.

[Jim_Jude]

Could you elaborate on this statement?

Oh, it's just a Kuhnian thing, incommensurability of rival paradigms & **** like that. Ignore me, I'm tired.

I suppose my biggest problem with that mindset is presumes that the key to martial arts training is "learning new moves." Just look at boxing gyms; how many boxing classes do you have to attend before running out of new punches to learn? Does this put boxing gyms out of business?

Oh, of course not. However, there are only so many punches that they can make, limited as they are by the demands of the sport and the rule set.
(Boxing gyms focus highly on conditioning too, keep that in mind, & they provide equipment and assistance that most fighters don't have access to elsewhere)
Kinda like the whole "Gracie Combatives" thing, thirty-something techniques which are considered the "high-percentage" techniques out of all Gracie Juijitsu, if you master them you'll be just fine in damn near any ground fighting situation, & yet you still have to show proficiency in how many, close to 200 techniques to become a black belt instructor?
Why? TO MAKE DAT MONEY!!!

[Jim_Jude]

Jim_Jude-

You, personally, are not a third world person living in a state of occupation by an imperial power that thinks of you and your culture as childlike buffoons at best and barbarians to be culled at worst. You are not indonesian. Indonesia itself is probably nothing like your portrayal of it. It is a modern country with godamn buses and internet cafes. The place you think you're getting your training from? It doesn't exist.
You think the third world is Ravnica: a place where secretive guilds of assasins teach arcane methods of brutal killing and have bloody duels on the streets that end in thirty seconds with somebody with their throat torn out and eyeballs shredded. Unless you're training in the fucking Irian Jaya, chances are your knife waving hasn't been used on anyone since your teacher's teacher's teacher was alive.

I was a month as a human rights observer in a Central American conflict zone. I hitchiked around Puerto Rico. I can tell you that the third world in your imagination is a ridiculous, exoticized abstraction.

Dude. ****. Off.

Conversation Over, Remember?

[DJR]

Jim_Jude-

You, personally, are not a third world person living in a state of occupation by an imperial power that thinks of you and your culture as childlike buffoons at best and barbarians to be culled at worst. You are not indonesian. Indonesia itself is probably nothing like your portrayal of it. It is a modern country with godamn buses and internet cafes. The place you think you're getting your training from? It doesn't exist.
...I can tell you that the third world in your imagination is a ridiculous, exoticized abstraction.

Post-colonial theory FTW!!!!

[raylawley]

So now you're comparing ONE PARTICULAR STYLE OF JUJUTSU to EVERY SINGLE STYLE OF PENTJAK SILAT, literally hundreds of different styles???

You sure are a real winner when it comes to logic.

There are many different styles of BJJ as well. It varies wherever you go. Two gyms will not have the same focus, but are based on the same core art.

Silat must logically be similar since it is also an art with a singular name. I don't see Brazilian Silat or Japanese Silat or Silat-do out there.

Oh, **** off with that. How different is it??? "Oooh, I do teh Twister & Rubber Guard more often than not, I'm more special than even regular BJJ folks"
My point still stands.

Unless you provide something other than anecdotal evidence to the effect that the difference in Silat schools is greater than this difference in BJJ (which is an understatement and yet another example of your failed caustic humour), your point does not stand at all. You have nothing at all to back up said point.

Perhaps you should take a class in logical argument.

[irony] Hint: it doesn't involve dismissing every point with horrible attempts at sarcasm. [/irony]

Funny. I've disliked you for many pages. Time to **** off? I think so. Bye.

Dislike away. I think you're a douchebag who's conjuring up the same bullshit arguments spouted by the douchebags this site was created to mock. So, to be concise, **** you.

These days, someone comes along, watches your rather detailed video, and then they go on the seminar circuit making money off of your hard work, just because you chose to divulge and not capitalize on your knowledge.

Paranoia. This is bound to happen anyway.

If anything this is MORE likely to happen if you shroud your art in bullshit secrecy because people don't have an example of the effective style with which to compare it.

Perhaps the reason that Silat is so variable is because its high-level training is shrouded in this kind of secrecy, and nobody can tell the difference between the bullshit and the good stuff, thus giving the bullshit artists a rich breeding ground of ignorance.


The secrecy bullshit is not justifiable under any circumstances. This isn't feudal Japan, and I consider any art which propagates this to be approaching a cult mentality.

"Here's everything I know.
Now, who wants to sign up & pay a monthly fee to learn a bunch of free information?
No one? Oh, where did I go wrong?<sniff>"

This is fucking ridiculous. It hasn't happened with the myriad of other effective arts out there who have cut the bullshit secrecy; there are plenty of excellent places around which are doing very well.

TheMightyMcClaw is right. An abundance of moves does not indicate a superior art. The body only works a relatively limited number of ways; the fact is, super-deadly-secret winning moves don't exist anymore. It's the guys who are the best at what they have that are the most effective.

Oh, of course not. However, there are only so many punches that they can make, limited as they are by the demands of the sport and the rule set.

That's irrelevant. Regardless of rules, even Silat is restricted by the number of ways in which the human body works. So they are limited in the number of techniques which are going to work a high percentage of the time.

Dude. ****. Off.

Conversation Over, Remember?

What's this? Dismissing a line of argument, after having continued the debate yourself?

[sarcaustic humour]
Another excellent demonstration of your incredibly superior logical skills [/sarcaustic humour]

Hey, I just created a new word. Sarcaustic....I like it.

[Hedgehogey]

Post-colonial theory FTW!!!!

Yeah, basically. There's at least another page worth of stuff I could go into regarding the 'otherizing' that people like JJ apply to third world brown skinned people and how subtly disrespectful it is.

[Jim_Jude]

Yeah, basically. There's at least another page worth of stuff I could go into regarding the 'otherizing' that people like JJ apply to third world brown skinned people and how subtly disrespectful it is.

What in the rat **** are you talking about???







"Je est un autre"

[Jim_Jude]

There are many different styles of BJJ as well. It varies wherever you go. Two gyms will not have the same focus, but are based on the same core art.

Silat must logically be similar since it is also an art with a singular name. I don't see Brazilian Silat or Japanese Silat or Silat-do out there.

Really? How so? You don't know jack **** about Silat, so you can't make that claim now can you? You are so woefully ignorant. Do you know the operative differences between Serak, Harimau, and Tjimande? Hmmm...

Unless you provide something other than anecdotal evidence to the effect that the difference in Silat schools is greater than this difference in BJJ (which is an understatement and yet another example of your failed caustic humour), your point does not stand at all. You have nothing at all to back up said point.

Yeah, nothing but my own experience, documented experience of others, and the published literature on the subject. Yeah, that's it. God, what in the world did we do before YouTube. I doubt that anything ever existed before YouTube provided us with TEH pR00f....

Perhaps you should take a class in logical argument.

That's funny. I'll make sure to share that sentiment with the rest of the philosophy majors that I see every day....

If anything this is MORE likely to happen if you shroud your art in bullshit secrecy because people don't have an example of the effective style with which to compare it.

Yes, that's entirely possible.


Not True, however.

The secrecy bullshit is not justifiable under any circumstances. This isn't feudal Japan, and I consider any art which propagates this to be approaching a cult mentality.

That's wonderful, and of course unless you are prepared to present this in some kind of logical format, it's just your fucking opinion which lacks any truth value. Get it? & ultimately, no one gives a **** about your fucking opinion.

TheMightyMcClaw is right. An abundance of moves does not indicate a superior art. The body only works a relatively limited number of ways; the fact is, super-deadly-secret winning moves don't exist anymore. It's the guys who are the best at what they have that are the most effective.

And I disputed this point WHERE? Who was talking about the Red Herring? Son, you've been throwing them around like some kind of crazed fish monger.

What's this? Dismissing a line of argument, after having continued the debate yourself?

[sarcaustic humour]
Another excellent demonstration of your incredibly superior logical skills [/sarcaustic humour]

Hey, I just created a new word. Sarcaustic....I like it.

Conversation Over Yet? Huh, asshole? You couldn't argue your way out of a wet paper bag anyway. Just a typical Internet a-hole, getting in the last word in an argument you're failing miserably at.

[Chili Pepper]

"Je est un autre"

"Je suis," not "je est" unless you wanted to say "I is."*



* and for that matter, just what are you another of?