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  1. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 8:32am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    If I shoot and someone sprawls on me, I don't have to worry about getting kneed in the face, while I am crouched down to do the shoot in MMA. Also, I have no fear of strikes to my spine when I shoot, in MMA.
    Yes, knees to the face can work (and are legal), they're just not reliable - you'll go down many times more often than you'll knock them out. Strikes to the spine don't really work, and most of the footage we have of people attempting them shows a couple of weak blows as their base is taken away, then a hefty takedown and being finished on the ground.

    Again, you need to find some data rather than pulling opinions out of your arse.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Also, even in MMA rules, you can reverse the shoot. I am not claiming to be the deadliest dude on the planet (nor am I), but if someone sees it coming, they can easily sprawl, and flip you over onto your back.
    For this to happen, they need to be better at sprawling than you are at shooting. I suggest you find yourself a wrestler to train with. A good sprawl needs work, you can't just pull it out of the bag having seen one on TV. I speak from experience here; I couldn't sprawl reliably enough to guarantee beating shots from a guy with a very strong athletics and rugby background and a modicum of wrestling, despite several years of judo - in judo, you can stuff shots using gi gripping and so the sprawl doesn't really get worked as hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    As per the ground-hugging comment, I dont see the validity in going right away to it. I have watched MMA matches, and many times, after a takedown, the opponent is already in a disadvantageous position, and already setup for a stomp or kick to the head or to get kneed in the head.
    So you get one shot off, they cover up, they turn and defend, and your advantage is gone. Why is this better than controlling them, landing a great many punches and finishing with a submission?

    You're assuming that the kick to the head will end the fight, and there's no guarantee that it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    I also don't like people who pull guard to quick, because it is more a last resort technique, in my eyes. Fighting off your back is disadvantageous, and even most BJJ guys will say top position is better. Also fighting off your back, I would say 9/10 times, takes way longer to set something up, and usually ends up lasting almost a whole round.
    Only where both sides are comparably skilled. The average newbie wandering into the club gets caught with a submission in my guard within the first fifteen to twenty seconds.

    Still, it's a defensible position in a way that being under side control or mount is not, so given a high risk of having them pass to side control or mount, switching to guard is the most sensible option.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    As for the mount, going into a knee in the face or a face kick - I still think it is possible. I dont see why not - you are on top of your opponent, with him pinned, you stand, and kick in the face.
    You're falling into that commonest of bullshido fallacies: bullet time. While you rise to your feet, he's not static. He's moving and will have some form of open guard by the time you're up. First thing he'll do is seize a leg and twist his knee up against your thigh. Not only will you not get your kick off, you'll be lucky not to be swept, mounted and pounded in your turn.

    Again, go get some experience before you shoot your mouth off.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    It sounds like an endless debate to me, as practicioners of any art, usually defend it like crazy, no matter what it is - So I will leave it that for the time being.
    No. There are claims sometimes made about BJJ which can be fairly criticised. From a "street" point of view, its an art of last resort, and it shouldn't be presented as an unstoppable answer to everything. It isn't the whole fighting game, it needs the addition of takedowns and striking and possibly weapons for that.

    However, your criticism of the techniques is based on ignorance of how things actually work, and you're overly impressed by the idea of kicking people in the head. Go train. The answers will become apparent.
  2. grammatoncleric is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 1:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    Are you actually seriously suggesting that your place of training is so jealously secretive of their deadly techniques that they would excommunicate you for revealing it through video?
    That's common in the world of Silat. Whatever you learn you can't show it to anyone, let alone grab and friend and go through some drills... One of the things that annoys me... too much control and paranoia (I'm not saying all Silat people do it for those reasons).
  3. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 3:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    Oh, I see. You're a telepath too. So what am I thinking, then?
    Nothing important. Next?


    Irrelevant. Unsure what point you're trying to make, except to possibly throw a red herring out there.
    Nope. I was just trying to clarify, since you misquoted me.


    An attempt to divert the debate to semantics. Nice try.
    No, not semantics, you just misquoted me. Again.


    In the context of my argument, which was one-on-one hand to hand combat, it didn't. Please pay attention to the argument you are trying to refute.
    No, YOU'RE THE ONE who said rule set versus rule set had more disparity than rule set versus NO rules. No rules doesn't mean you get to apply rules. That would be MMA Rule Set VS Your Rule Set.


    That depends. Are you claiming Silat specialises in avoiding being run over by a Chevy? If so, then I will definitely admit that it would be difficult to adapt to the ring against anybody except Tank Abbot.

    So, are you claiming that your art is highly effective at avoiding said multiple-Chevy attacks? Otherwise, you're just being a smartassed douchebag.
    Yeah, you keep pretending that I'm talking about Silat when I'm talking about your stupid claim ^^^above^^^.


    Again, smartassed douchebag. You know damned well I was speaking specifically about multiple-opponent scenarios.
    Yeah, I've heard that, that most BJJ teachers say that you don't have a chance in a multi opponent scenario. Of course, If you're busy hugging one of the guys with your legs, I bet that makes sense....

    Uh-uh. You're trying to change what we're arguing. We were talking about why you are claiming your Silat cannot be proven in a full-contact sparring session or full-contact fight.
    Actually, IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ MY POSTS, you would see that I've said the absolute opposite. The mechanics of Silat are very much like other arts, you'd just have to wind things down and take out the techniques that would be considered illegal in MMA format. PLEASE bother to read my posts, or don't reply to this. It's definitely a waste of my time otherwise (actually, I'm beginnning to thing that it's a waste either way...)

    If you start yelling that the reason it can't is because it's designed for t3h d34dly str33tz with hundreds of machete-wielding ice junkies trying to run you over in their Chevrolets, then you're taking up the mantra of every single other "too deadly for the ring" art out there, a la Bujinkan.
    What is your hang up with the Bujinkan? Drop it already. It's like every other post with you. Grow up and move on.


    Of course. You don't punch or kick people in the face full-force all the time. You don't snap peoples' arms off with every armbar you pull. And yet, your Silat techniques are, according to you, so dangerous they cannot be proven effective on video, and yet not too dangerous to train effectively with protective gear...

    I FAIL COMPLETELY AT READING COMPREHENSION.
    Fixed.

    Why? It won't ruin your learning curve, because as I mentioned earlier, claiming it will is like claiming that sparring with only grappling will ruin your MMA learning curve (an argument you have yet to address with anything more coherent than "ITS DIFRENT LOL"
    That is absolutely NOT what I said. I think you just like the sound of your keyboard. Read my posts, I stated very specific reasons why I have no desire to pursue MMA competition to "prove Silat", & they were markedly different than "ITS DIFRENT LOL"

    drivel...
    drivel...
    drivel...
    drivel...
    drivel...
    drivel...

    Are you actually seriously suggesting that your place of training is so jealously secretive of their deadly techniques that they would excommunicate you for revealing it through video?
    Did I fucking stutter?


    People often visit sites such as this because they want to start a martial art, but are unsure what they want to do. On the one hand, there's people who really want to practise a highly effective self-defence martial art and are not interested in sport.

    Surely these people would benefit greatly from having available video of Silat working effectively in a high-pressure situation such as full-contact sparring?
    & I have referred them to OTHER reputable sources of Silat video, peppered all throughout the thread. Were you so excited about what you were going to post next that you completely missed all of them?

    Yeah, why don't we just stop this conversation. I think that's a good idea, since you have no real interest in anything but your own posts. Thanks, buh-bye.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  4. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 5:19pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In the space of one post, you've managed to transform from someone I disagreed with and was slightly irritated about, to somebody I actively dislike.

    You're trying to be caustically humourous, and coming across like a douchebag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Yeah, you keep pretending that I'm talking about Silat when I'm talking about your stupid claim ^^^above^^^.
    Nah. You were trying to divert the debate by filling it with an abundance of semi-literate sarcasm. Obfuscating the original topic with your bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Yeah, I've heard that, that most BJJ teachers say that you don't have a chance in a multi opponent scenario. Of course, If you're busy hugging one of the guys with your legs, I bet that makes sense....
    Fucking retarded comment meant to be funny. Gross generalisation.

    Hey, here's an interesting point. Almost EVERY BJJ gym is going to be training in an effective manner. Can you say that about Silat?

    You want to drag this into style vs style, you chose the wrong style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    What is your hang up with the Bujinkan? Drop it already. It's like every other post with you. Grow up and move on.
    You can't drown the similarities out because I've said it often. You've made no effort to refute it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Actually, IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ MY POSTS, you would see that I've said absolutely nothing of value. The mechanics of Silat are very much like the Booj, you'd just have to wind things down and take out the techniques that would be considered illegal in Ninja format. PLEASE bother to read my posts, or your brain might stay intact. It's definitely a waste of your time (actually, I'm beginnning to thing that it's a waste either way...)
    Fixed.

    HAR HAR HAR, SEE HOW FUNNY AND WITTY IT IS?

    So, I repeat, just in case you decide to actually formulate an intelligent response:

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley
    Of course. You don't punch or kick people in the face full-force all the time. You don't snap peoples' arms off with every armbar you pull. And yet, your Silat techniques are, according to you, so dangerous they cannot be proven effective on video, and yet not too dangerous to train effectively with protective gear...
    Last edited by raylawley; 4/07/2009 5:21pm at . Reason: Spelling mistake; must be something to do with my horrible reading comprehension.
  5. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:07pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    In the space of one post, you've managed to transform from someone I disagreed with and was slightly irritated about, to somebody I actively dislike.

    You're trying to be caustically humourous, and coming across like a douchebag.
    It's commonly overlooked that in order to pull of the (as you put it) "caustically humorous" style, you also need to be really, really witty and charming in order for it to do anything other than make you seem like a dick with no friends. Even when one is exceptional in wit and charm, the act wears thin eventually.
    A good number of bullies would heed this advice well.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    Hey, here's an interesting point. Almost EVERY BJJ gym is going to be training in an effective manner. Can you say that about Silat?
    So now you're comparing ONE PARTICULAR STYLE OF JUJUTSU to EVERY SINGLE STYLE OF PENTJAK SILAT, literally hundreds of different styles???

    You sure are a real winner when it comes to logic.

    Wait! I thought the conversation was over?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:54pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    So now you're comparing ONE PARTICULAR STYLE OF JUJUTSU to EVERY SINGLE STYLE OF PENTJAK SILAT, literally hundreds of different styles???

    You sure are a real winner when it comes to logic.

    Wait! I thought the conversation was over?

    BJJ is hardly "one particular style," let alone that in all capital letters; someone training at a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu academy is going to be doing something quite different from someone training at a 10th Planet school.
  8. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 7:02pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the irritating "benefits" to this generally peaceful society we all inhabit here in the United States is that discussions of what works and what doesn't can devolve into complete intellectuality.

    Serge, you scared the **** out of me, I thought I'd developed some kind of fingertip based tourett's syndrome.

    Asshole.

    Look can we leave BJJ out of this? I have to admit, if you're doing BJJ and BJJ alone for self-defense you're kind of fooling yourself as well in terms to being able to defend yourself without the benefit of rings and rules.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  9. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 7:11pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    Look can we leave BJJ out of this? I have to admit, if you're doing BJJ and BJJ alone for self-defense you're kind of fooling yourself as well in terms to being able to defend yourself without the benefit of rings and rules.
    Hell, it's hard enough to compete in BJJ without crosstraining in Judo or wrestling.
  10. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 7:11pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh god, I'm derailing my own thread.

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