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  1. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 10:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    Would we buy this from...anyone? I sure don't.

    In fact, arguments from authority never hold weight with me.
    I'm not suggesting belief, instead the suspension of disbelief. Besides, Jim asserts a point. That's all.

    You don't have to believe him or even listen. I have no way of knowing if his teachers are who they say they are, but I've had rational conversations with Jim, which I can tell you from experience is difficult to come by from the majority of the silat crowd.

    It makes me inclined to have conversations with him rather than drown him out with the very predictable and pre-requisite "Vid or it didn't happen."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    These descriptions of Silat teachers scare me plenty.

    Mental illness plus knives equals terror in my book.
    You have no fucking idea, really. When they're bad they are very, very scary. My old teacher required her students who tested above a certain rank to walk on broken glass.

    When you tested for black belt you had to give her a knife in a box. The knife was to be used on you if you disgraced the art.

    That's some fucked up, repugnant ****.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  2. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 11:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    Alright.

    Far be it from me to be the voice of reason here. And believe me if we've gotten to that point the wheels have seriously come off.

    What the **** is everybody so goddamn pissed off about?

    This isn't serving a purpose. I know this is YMAS, but christ there has to at least be some point to an intelligent discussion. I mean, Serge (not that I'm really surprised here) is managing to post without losing his ****.
    ****, I didn't realize I was so off my game! here:
    YouTube - Shut Up

    Jim, what the **** dude? you ******-ass fucktard !!
    take it easy JP, Jesus!

    Yes there is some silat that does not suck. Yes it's hard to find. Yes, most of it sucks because of the reason that most traditional martial arts suck. Bad teaching and training methods.
    Yeah, I know this ain't MAP. I wasn't asking for civilized. I'm asking for intelligent.
    here's my recent take: I was talking to my Silat&etc buddy about Steve Gartin and I said that there is all this crap on YouTube of him mandancing with knives and ****. But then you see him do an attack and it is direct and accurate and controlled. Like, the moment he actually strikes, he snaps out of his monkey-dance and goes: inside of wrist to neck to kidney from the back corner; then back to the goofy-looking ****.

    V__ then told me that he was in Santa Cruz with Mike Roberto and Steve Gartin, Mike snapped open his 5" folder and started weaving and slicing at Steve who defended the attacks. They both started laughing as Mike added more and more to each knife-slice. Everyone there started to back away as these two nutjobs got more&more into it. Gartin was narrowly avoiding neck/gut/wrist attacks and seemed unconcerned and happy.

    It ended after a few minutes with those two shaking hands. V__ and the others there were thinking "Why didn't we film that?"

    I have absolutely no reason to think my friend is exaggerating. I keep him anonymous only because he's a friend and I didn't ask him about posting this. Maybe I'll do an edit later...

    The point being, I absolutely believe that there is quality Silat out there. There is quality knife-skills from a variety of styles. A couple of my students were students of the late Sonny Umpad, I regret that I couldn't train with him as they frequently embarrass me in stick/knife work. There isn't much that will gratify us as to the veritas of his material but-unfortunately- as an argument from authority: Sonny rocked that ****!

    Likewise, from the right sources, the same can be had from Silat. It's just that you'll have to train with the psychos if you want the good-stuff.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  3. jimmywangyu is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:07am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just looked at my replies, and there is a lot of replies to read, so I will address them when I get a chance to read them (unless you are writing something rude, instead of having a discussion with me)

    Some of the replies had similarity so I will say this:

    In terms of barging and just rushing in without thinking - it does seem like that to me, and I personally do not think it is a good strategy. If there is an opening, I would say go for it. In a ring fight, there is less fear of other dangerous factors, except taking a punch or various other strikes to the face and other areas. Even though the kenpo guy lost to Royce in the end, when Royce rushed in, he took pretty hard hand strikes to the face. Even if it doesnt knock you out, getting hit that hard will definitely slow you down.

    In a street fight, which is more dangerous (not trying to sound like the guys that usually get dissed on here), you never know what to expect, and it is unintelligent to just think you can tackle everyone to the ground. Personally, I find it less scary to fight MMA, than a street fight - at least in MMA, I have the ref & rules. If I shoot and someone sprawls on me, I don't have to worry about getting kneed in the face, while I am crouched down to do the shoot in MMA. Also, I have no fear of strikes to my spine when I shoot, in MMA.

    Also, even in MMA rules, you can reverse the shoot. I am not claiming to be the deadliest dude on the planet (nor am I), but if someone sees it coming, they can easily sprawl, and flip you over onto your back.

    As per the ground-hugging comment, I dont see the validity in going right away to it. I have watched MMA matches, and many times, after a takedown, the opponent is already in a disadvantageous position, and already setup for a stomp or kick to the head or to get kneed in the head. I also don't like people who pull guard to quick, because it is more a last resort technique, in my eyes. Fighting off your back is disadvantageous, and even most BJJ guys will say top position is better. Also fighting off your back, I would say 9/10 times, takes way longer to set something up, and usually ends up lasting almost a whole round. Going out of your comfort zone, is one of the points of MMA & martial arts in general, to add and improve your fighting skills - the same as striking arts, learn grappling maneuvers for situations, they need to think of other methods, besides, going into guard all the time.

    As for the mount, going into a knee in the face or a face kick - I still think it is possible. I dont see why not - you are on top of your opponent, with him pinned, you stand, and kick in the face.

    It sounds like an endless debate to me, as practicioners of any art, usually defend it like crazy, no matter what it is - So I will leave it that for the time being. I was watching a match between Crosley Gracie & Melvin Manhoef, and the comments were basically people making fun of BJJ & the Gracies, and people stating that Crosley doesn't have real BJJ or whatever dumb stuff. The same happenned when a youtube video of a karate guy (black guy named Leonard I believe) surfaced, and the karate guy completely dismantled the BJJ/MMA in under a minute. People wrote comments that BJJ was gay, and then all the BJJ guys were defending it like crazy.

    Anyways, I am not at all demeaning the art, I think its good - those are just points I feel are closed minded and silly to me.
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:16am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    I'm just sayin', we don't let any other martial arts get away with this crap.

    Or the whole closed door SOMEBODEH GONNA STEAL MAH TEKNEEKS paranoia bit. The various positions and transitions of the rubber guard aren't a secret, and 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu is still in business.
    I don't blame you, but I'm just a student, I don't make the rules.
    Some styles of Silat show it all, especially on video (Check out Herman Suwanda vids through his sister's organization, or Bambang Suwanda vids). Other good dvd sources are Cliff Stewart and Steven Plinck (old time students of the DeThouars, back when they were still all teaching Silat Serak.)
    It would be easy to do Silat in an MMA environment, as I said, I've just never seen it. In my estimation, if would look somewhat like a blend of San Shou and Muay Thai.
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 4/07/2009 12:57am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:21am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    I'm not getting in your face, electronically speaking, but I am saying that Jim's not your average asshole.
    I'm taking that as a compliment. You'll never convince me otherwise...
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 12:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    When you tested for black belt you had to give her a knife in a box. The knife was to be used on you if you disgraced the art.

    That's some fucked up, repugnant ****.
    I hope that doesn't happen to me. A few months into training my teacher had a birthday & I gave him a Cold Steel Recon Tanto. It was the first time I saw a Silat knife form in real life with a live blade. I slowly backed away, he was so fast with it, it looked very similar to some of the Sayoc or Pekiti Tersia movements I've seen. Then he picked up a training knife and broke the form down completely for me, move by move. I can't imagine ever facing a Sayoc or Pekiti Tersia master with a knife in an enclosed space, & the Silat knife work was the same. I've seen some really wide open flashy Silat weapon work that I thought sucked, but then Ray explained how you can take all of these forms and shrink them down and make them more economic & compact, and how most people are taught these huge forms that take up 20 square feet to perform that could all be worked in a closet but if they just knew how to economize them down, they'd have something to work with. Of course, all this made me want to do was go and buy every Silat dvd I would find and disect their forms now that I had an idea of how to do it...

    Oh, someone sent this to me awhile back, I forgot about it. Probably not what you're looking for, it's not MMA or all out, but it's something different (made by Leo Terlinden in Holland. Leo's father Rudy Terlinden did San Soo for many years with Jimmy Woo, & obviously Leo liked it as I see some San Soo in this vid mixed with the Silat).

    Leo Terlinden: Combonation Training Video by Pencak Silat Ratu Adil - MySpace Video@@AMEPARAM@@http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=20942288@@AMEPARAM@@mediaservices@@AMEPARAM@@mys pace@@AMEPARAM@@services/media/embed@@AMEPARAM@@aspx/m@@AMEPARAM@@20942288
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 4/07/2009 1:05am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. Tersi is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 5:52am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    Well, knives make just about any empty-handed art into a complete horror-show, so we can discount that as a factor. No use saying "silat rocks, because we've got knives" since so would sport TKD if their practitioners had knives.
    I really like the idea of TKD fighters with blades ducktaped to theyr feet. We need a movie or something.
  8. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:31am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    No you're not. But that's okay.
    Oh, I see. You're a telepath too. So what am I thinking, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    What? Why? You're the one comparing grappling, MMA, & "No Rules At All". Soldiers have rules. Try the UCMJ & the Geneva Convention?
    Irrelevant. Unsure what point you're trying to make, except to possibly throw a red herring out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    No, that isn't what I said, & if you bothered to read my post accurately you'd know that. Try again, kiddo.
    An attempt to divert the debate to semantics. Nice try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    So, what part of "no rules at all" has a fucking thing to do with you "discounting weapons"??? No Rules means No Rules.
    In the context of my argument, which was one-on-one hand to hand combat, it didn't. Please pay attention to the argument you are trying to refute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Bullshit. So as long as I don't use any small joint manipulation, I'm still free to run the guy over with a Chevy, right?
    That depends. Are you claiming Silat specialises in avoiding being run over by a Chevy? If so, then I will definitely admit that it would be difficult to adapt to the ring against anybody except Tank Abbot.

    So, are you claiming that your art is highly effective at avoiding said multiple-Chevy attacks? Otherwise, you're just being a smartassed douchebag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    You're a fucking idiot. If RUN-FU was the only art, there never would have been any wars, just many many marathons..
    Again, smartassed douchebag. You know damned well I was speaking specifically about multiple-opponent scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Yeah, like I mentioned any of that, you fuckin' nuthugger. I'm much more interesting in dealing with the REAL human factor of problems OUTSIDE of the cage. THEY BRING WEAPONS AND FRIENDS. If you're going to talk intelligently about the subject, you can't just "discount" them and pretend actually talk about this.
    Uh-uh. You're trying to change what we're arguing. We were talking about why you are claiming your Silat cannot be proven in a full-contact sparring session or full-contact fight.

    If you start yelling that the reason it can't is because it's designed for t3h d34dly str33tz with hundreds of machete-wielding ice junkies trying to run you over in their Chevrolets, then you're taking up the mantra of every single other "too deadly for the ring" art out there, a la Bujinkan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Not all of them, just some of them. Just like any martial art used in a sport context, you have to either wind back the force or just not use them. Right? This isn't lost on you?
    Of course. You don't punch or kick people in the face full-force all the time. You don't snap peoples' arms off with every armbar you pull. And yet, your Silat techniques are, according to you, so dangerous they cannot be proven effective on video, and yet not too dangerous to train effectively with protective gear...

    I fail to see the logic there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Of course it could be adapted to the ring. I never said that it couldn't be, I said that it WOULDN'T BE. Especially by me, or anyone I know who does Silat.
    Why? It won't ruin your learning curve, because as I mentioned earlier, claiming it will is like claiming that sparring with only grappling will ruin your MMA learning curve (an argument you have yet to address with anything more coherent than "ITS DIFRENT LOL"

    Sparring on video with more restrictive rules which do not allow for some of your techniques to be used, according to you, ruins your learning curve. So where is the difference between a Silat practitioner sparring under MMA rules and an MMA practitioner sparring under grappling rules? Surely by your logic the learning curve will be ruined for both.

    Yet, plenty of MMA fighters compete in grappling tournaments.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Really? Which rules will we be following then? & if stomps and knee drops to EFFECTIVE targets aren't allowed as applied in my art, then how should I deal with a downed opponent. Perhaps join him down there and get in a Brazilian horizontal hugging contest? Yeah, you'd like that, wouldn't you?
    What do you classify as effective targets? Pride rules allow kicks to the head and body on the ground. Unless you're talking about axe kicking someone in the testicles, I'm not sure what you're on about.

    OH TEH NOES! A GRAPPLING = GAY JOKE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    You're right. I'm not interested in proving Silat to anyone, especially you. Plane tickets are too expensive. & this conversation is useless otherwise, so...
    If you're not interested in proving Silat to anyone, why are you posting in this thread?

    Unless you can provide satisfactory answers to these questions, as far as I'm concerned...

    Conversation Over.





    ...

    WAIT JUST ONE SECOND I MISSED SOME STUFF HERE

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Great. I make all my little e-friends on Bullshido happy with some vids; meanwhile, I'm cordially invited to leave my current training and never come back.
    Are you actually seriously suggesting that your place of training is so jealously secretive of their deadly techniques that they would excommunicate you for revealing it through video?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Yeah, it's all anecdotal. Of course, one could just go train with a decent Silat group and maybe see for themselves, if not interested in taking someone's word for it.
    People often visit sites such as this because they want to start a martial art, but are unsure what they want to do. On the one hand, there's people who really want to practise a highly effective self-defence martial art and are not interested in sport.

    Surely these people would benefit greatly from having available video of Silat working effectively in a high-pressure situation such as full-contact sparring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Blah, the tough guy Bullshido enforcer fanboy act was old before you joined up. Grow up, kiddie.
    Does anybody else find this funny because J_J signed up six months AFTER 1point2? Just putting it out there.
  9. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 6:44am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu
    Fighting off your back is disadvantageous, and even most BJJ guys will say top position is better.
    Dude, I would hope ALL BJJ guys will say top position is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu
    If I shoot and someone sprawls on me, I don't have to worry about getting kneed in the face, while I am crouched down to do the shoot in MMA
    Sure you do...knees are allowed under most MMA rulesets.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu
    As for the mount, going into a knee in the face or a face kick - I still think it is possible. I dont see why not - you are on top of your opponent, with him pinned, you stand, and kick in the face.
    Actually, I've found standing up from the mount is pretty hard...the dude often just pulls his guard back in front of him as you're rising and either catches you or, if you stand up, ends up with his legs between you and his head. In which case, kicking him in the head is almost impossible.

    Just my experience...I could be wrong.
  10. Chili Pepper is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2009 8:18am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    Are you actually seriously suggesting that your place of training is so jealously secretive of their deadly techniques that they would excommunicate you for revealing it through video?
    I'm sure he is. The De Thouars brothers are well-known for excommunicating students at the drop of a hat, and if you're not wearing a hat, they'll bring one along just in case.

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