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  1. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 3:23pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Funny, douche. It would seem here, at Bullshido, you and your comrades have already established the criteria for a good school teaching effective methods. Pressure Testing with Resisting Opponents and Contact Capable methods. What? Did you forget?
    Okay, but he maybe has a point. So let me try and ask his question in a better way. I'll split it up into two parts because my brain likes smaller pieces of information.

    1) What are some specific earmarks of good silat. I don't mean generalities like pressure testing or contact capable methods. I get that. But is there anything else? Like specific techniques that are treated as high percentage and bedrock skills? Like, I know puter kepala is a silat technique, but I wouldn't regard it as terribly easy to apply or high percentage. What are some solid techniques that every silat school should be teaching. Things that a potential student could ask about without being rude?

    2) How exactly (within privacy limits) did you find your instructor? You said earlier you kind of stumbled upon him, but there's got to be more than the story than that?
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  2. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 3:50pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good Silat is sounding more and more like the hypothetical Space Toaster.
    For those of you unaware, there is a toaster in orbit around the star Alpha Centauri; It's too small and far away to be detected by any means, and thus we have no evidence of it. But trust me, it's there.

    Jim, for the love of god, calm the **** down. I started a thread specifically to try and dissuade my own negative opinion of Silat, and then you came in with this Phil Elmore D3EADLY STR33T ART act like some kind of messenger from the Bullshido gods to spread the Bad News of Silat and remind me of why I don't like it.
    You fervently insist that you care not what the rest of Bullshido thinks with one hand, while hurling out insults and triple-posts to any who request evidence of your arguments with the other.
  3. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 4:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    Okay, but he maybe has a point. So let me try and ask his question in a better way. I'll split it up into two parts because my brain likes smaller pieces of information.

    1) What are some specific earmarks of good silat. I don't mean generalities like pressure testing or contact capable methods. I get that. But is there anything else? Like specific techniques that are treated as high percentage and bedrock skills? Like, I know puter kepala is a silat technique, but I wouldn't regard it as terribly easy to apply or high percentage. What are some solid techniques that every silat school should be teaching. Things that a potential student could ask about without being rude?
    Barring the "illegal" stuff?
    - Making Langkah Tiga & Empat footwork work, which requires a lot of practice. Mostly it has to do with knowing what the distance requires & if weapons are involved, since the Tiga is more close range triangular and the Empat moves more at right angles.
    (CodosDePiedra mentioned having some vid of someone using it doing knife work, hopefully he'll post it, I'm still a bit computer illiterate when it comes to that kind of thing.)
    - Correct and effective use of elbows (striking AND blocking) and lower leg attacks (I call it "shin bump&grind", requires significant shin conditioning, just kicking the heavy bag ain't gonna do it)
    - Correct application of sapu and beset sweeps for takedowns.
    - Strong chopping blocks effectively used.
    - Open-hand blocks (one & two-hand) being used effectively, & also effective temporary use of "pinning" of limbs against the body to open channels of attack. (Cliff Stewart's WAR series show this well against fast combo punches)

    Can't really thing of anything else off the top of my head that would be easy to explain. Sorry.

    2) How exactly (within privacy limits) did you find your instructor?
    It was literally a stumbling. Actually, I stumbled across his wife, who is also a MA instructor, and after a lengthy conversation I was invited for a trial run, so to speak.
    You said earlier you kind of stumbled upon him, but there's got to be more than the story than that?
    Yeah, I had to go to significant lengths to guarantee that I had no connection to the deThouars Silat Sera(k) organization. Apparently they've been trying to steal Rudy Terlinden's art (while simultaneously naysaying it) for quite some time. That, & I had to be tortured with the claim that there would be absolutely no knife or weapon work involved in our training. (luckly that little charade only lasted a couple months. I learned some great elbow&shin conditioning in the meantime.

    Just a side note: many Silat instructors in the U.S. who are less than honorable, are not above stealing someone elses' Silat techniques and claiming that they had it the whole time, since many people here still don't what to look for & Silat is pretty weird to be perfectly honest. The Terlinden-DeThouars feud is decades old, and while some of the DeThouars camp have been infiltrating other styles of Silat and stealing their ****, the Terlinden instructors have chosen to just cloister themselves and keep working and training while slowly building a loose but loyal body of practitioners (I suppose they're waiting for some crazy ol' guys to die(?) so we can all just do some Silat...)
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 4:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Good Silat is sounding more and more like the hypothetical Space Toaster.
    For those of you unaware, there is a toaster in orbit around the star Alpha Centauri; It's too small and far away to be detected by any means, and thus we have no evidence of it. But trust me, it's there.
    No, there's plenty of evidence. You just need to go get some new experiences instead of whining about the lack of instant Internet gratification. Don't complain to me, that's not my fault.

    Jim, for the love of god, calm the **** down. I started a thread specifically to try and dissuade my own negative opinion of Silat, and then you came in with this Phil Elmore D3EADLY STR33T ART act like some kind of messenger from the Bullshido gods to spread the Bad News of Silat and remind me of why I don't like it.
    You fervently insist that you care not what the rest of Bullshido thinks with one hand, while hurling out insults and triple-posts to any who request evidence of your arguments with the other.
    Okay, I won't post in your thread anymore. Tried to educate you on the futility of your request & you don't want to hear it.

    That, & I'm bored. :adios:
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  5. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 4:52pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Barring the "illegal" stuff?
    - Making Langkah Tiga & Empat footwork work, which requires a lot of practice. Mostly it has to do with knowing what the distance requires & if weapons are involved, since the Tiga is more close range triangular and the Empat moves more at right angles.
    So, in terms of the practice, does this involve a lot of solo drills and sparring?

    As a frame of reference for something that I understand under pressure testing circumstances (the silat I got had little of that) Are the angle applied similarly to boxing? I imagine that there's considerable time devoted to staying in the pocket, rather than moving in and out?

    So we're on the same page, the silat I did just had lankas but they looked more like kung fu forms than anything else. They weren't just footwork drills.

    They also referred to simple combinations as djurus, rather than upper body techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    - Correct and effective use of elbows (striking AND blocking) and lower leg attacks (I call it "shin bump&grind", requires significant shin conditioning, just kicking the heavy bag ain't gonna do it)
    I've seen bits and pieces of this up close too, but never had anybody do it to me under pressure with any sort of convincing result. It hurt a little but I was able to step out and away from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    - Correct application of sapu and beset sweeps for takedowns.
    I've used bisets before, even in bjj. Learning these and having longish legs has helped me sweep and trip a lot better. The sapu, we weren't taught and I never got comfortable with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    - Strong chopping blocks effectively used.
    - Open-hand blocks (one & two-hand) being used effectively, & also effective temporary use of "pinning" of limbs against the body to open channels of attack. (Cliff Stewart's WAR series show this well against fast combo punches)
    I have to check out the WAR series. I'm not familiar with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Can't really thing of anything else off the top of my head that would be easy to explain. Sorry.
    That's a start at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Yeah, I had to go to significant lengths to guarantee that I had no connection to the deThouars Silat Sera(k) organization. Apparently they've been trying to steal Rudy Terlinden's art (while simultaneously naysaying it) for quite some time. That, & I had to be tortured with the claim that there would be absolutely no knife or weapon work involved in our training. (luckly that little charade only lasted a couple months. I learned some great elbow&shin conditioning in the meantime.
    But once you were in they stopped all that **** right?

    See, they did the same thing to me and I thought it was all a joke and it was just more closed door bullshit. Turned out they weren't kidding. No weapons.

    But they still tried to teach disarms. My brain must truly have been asleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Just a side note: many Silat instructors in the U.S. who are less than honorable, are not above stealing someone elses' Silat techniques and claiming that they had it the whole time, since many people here still don't what to look for & Silat is pretty weird to be perfectly honest. The Terlinden-DeThouars feud is decades old, and while some of the DeThouars camp have been infiltrating other styles of Silat and stealing their ****, the Terlinden instructors have chosen to just cloister themselves and keep working and training while slowly building a loose but loyal body of practitioners (I suppose they're waiting for some crazy ol' guys to die(?) so we can all just do some Silat...)
    I've seen the first part of this paragraph in action. About a year after I started training they began to offer these "special seminars" that had all this new information in it. Buncha bullshit. But there were a bunch of techniques that I was sure I'd seen in one of Bob Orlando's videos and in Steve Gartin's as well. Just without the weapons.

    Out of curiousity, what's the problem if they steal a technique or two? Without proper application or training it's not like the thing's going to work?

    I mean, to the serak people even pressure test or spar hard? I've only ever seen footage of the instructor's moving.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 5:19pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    - Making Langkah Tiga & Empat footwork work, which requires a lot of practice. Mostly it has to do with knowing what the distance requires & if weapons are involved, since the Tiga is more close range triangular and the Empat moves more at right angles.
    (CodosDePiedra mentioned having some vid of someone using it doing knife work, hopefully he'll post it, I'm still a bit computer illiterate when it comes to that kind of thing.)
    The closest thing I could find is some light sparring with some novelty halloween knives:
    chef knife vs meat cleaver Video by Ross - MySpace Video@@AMEPARAM@@http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=46099312@@AMEPARAM@@mediaservices@@AMEPARAM@@mys pace@@AMEPARAM@@services/media/embed@@AMEPARAM@@aspx/m@@AMEPARAM@@46099312
    It's not very good, but I figured someone should post a video of themself here even if it's not awesome, so it's not like that awful wing chun vs hooks thread.
  7. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 9:26pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Barring the "illegal" stuff?
    - Making Langkah Tiga & Empat footwork work, which requires a lot of practice. Mostly it has to do with knowing what the distance requires & if weapons are involved, since the Tiga is more close range triangular and the Empat moves more at right angles.
    (CodosDePiedra mentioned having some vid of someone using it doing knife work, hopefully he'll post it, I'm still a bit computer illiterate when it comes to that kind of thing.)
    - Correct and effective use of elbows (striking AND blocking) and lower leg attacks (I call it "shin bump&grind", requires significant shin conditioning, just kicking the heavy bag ain't gonna do it)
    - Correct application of sapu and beset sweeps for takedowns.
    - Strong chopping blocks effectively used.
    - Open-hand blocks (one & two-hand) being used effectively, & also effective temporary use of "pinning" of limbs against the body to open channels of attack. (Cliff Stewart's WAR series show this well against fast combo punches)
    Nice post. In my lingo, I'd say ashiwaza/kouchigari/kosotogari/leg sweeps, attacking the attack, leg kicks, trapping, and destructions. I know there's significant different, but that's just the rough parallel.

    Martial politics sucks balls. Isshinryu has it in spades.
  8. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 9:53pm

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     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    GO TRAIN WITH A GOOD SILAT INSTRUCTOR!!!
    IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND GOOD SILAT, ESPECIALLY ON THE INTERNET!!!!
    YOU MUST GO AND TRAIN!!!
    I'm just sayin', we don't let any other martial arts get away with this crap.

    Or the whole closed door SOMEBODEH GONNA STEAL MAH TEKNEEKS paranoia bit. The various positions and transitions of the rubber guard aren't a secret, and 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu is still in business.
  9. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 10:00pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    I'm just sayin', we don't let any other martial arts get away with this crap.
    No but we frequently allow respected and long-time posters to get away with it.

    I notice you didn't jump up Omega's dick when he said that he's sparred with silat people who scared the **** out of him.

    I'm not getting in your face, electronically speaking, but I am saying that Jim's not your average asshole. We can cut him a c-hair of slack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    Or the whole closed door SOMEBODEH GONNA STEAL MAH TEKNEEKS paranoia bit. The various positions and transitions of the rubber guard aren't a secret, and 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu is still in business.
    Yeah, I don't understand any of this **** either. I don't like it, I don't think it's cool and I don't find it particularly mysterious. It's just annoying.

    But what can you do? That's their right. In kind, the people in question are not running around talking about how much deadlier they are than everybody else. At least not Jim's people, or Jim himself. That I've read. Unlike a great deal of bullshit silat people who run around talking **** about fighters who's asses they certainly can't kick.

    The bullshit silat I studied, one of the teacher's best pupils got into it with some jiujitsu guys and got annhilated. Then he got yelled at for getting choked out.

    Because he'd stooped to playing their game instead of his own. But that's like chucking a toddler into the deep end and yelling at him for not being able to swim without his water wings.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  10. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 10:18pm

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     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    GO TRAIN WITH A GOOD WING CHUN INSTRUCTOR!!!
    IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND GOOD WING CHUN, ESPECIALLY ON THE INTERNET!!!!
    YOU MUST GO AND TRAIN!!!
    Would we buy this from...anyone? I sure don't.

    In fact, arguments from authority never hold weight with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    I notice you didn't jump up Omega's dick when he said that he's sparred with silat people who scared the **** out of him.
    These descriptions of Silat teachers scare me plenty.

    Mental illness plus knives equals terror in my book.
    Last edited by Hesperus; 4/06/2009 10:25pm at .

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