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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 11:58am

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    If an art claims to deal with life or death situations such as you are describing, then it needs to deal with far more serious negative impacts and should therefore be subject to even more rigorous testing than our inferior sports arts. So, is there some evidence of this kind of testing about? I'm geniunely interested now.
    No you're not. But that's okay.

    The short-term negative impacts of stress still apply regardless of the cause of that stress. I'm not sure at all what your point is here, but relating this to the battlefield is escalating it further than it needs to go.
    What? Why? You're the one comparing grappling, MMA, & "No Rules At All". Soldiers have rules. Try the UCMJ & the Geneva Convention?

    Are you saying someone who gets mugged and has the crap beaten out of them doesn't understand real life situations or have real life experience? Oh, of course. Only soldiers need to know how to defend themselves, and only soldiers understand what danger means.
    No, that isn't what I said, & if you bothered to read my post accurately you'd know that. Try again, kiddo.

    I SPECIFICALLY stated that I was discounting weapons from this. You're trying to bring this argument to a different level to allow yourself to shrug it off.
    So, what part of "no rules at all" has a fucking thing to do with you "discounting weapons"??? No Rules means No Rules.

    The direct rule disparity is greater. As I specifically said, I am not talking about mental differences. The only techniques you cannot use in the cage are stated in those rules.
    Bullshit. So as long as I don't use any small joint manipulation, I'm still free to run the guy over with a Chevy, right?

    Therefore, discounting weapons and multiple opponents (which, again, I stated BEFORE making that example, and these situations are totally different anyway, in that Run-Fu is the only effective art)
    You're a fucking idiot. If RUN-FU was the only art, there never would have been any wars, just many many marathons...

    the rule difference is greater between grappling tournaments and MMA than the difference in allowed techniques between MMA and the real world.

    You can start talking about brick walls, broken glass and lava all you like, but these only result in strategic differences and to argue differently is semantic and irrelevant.
    Yeah, like I mentioned any of that, you fuckin' nuthugger. I'm much more interesting in dealing with the REAL human factor of problems OUTSIDE of the cage. THEY BRING WEAPONS AND FRIENDS. If you're going to talk intelligently about the subject, you can't just "discount" them and pretend actually talk about this.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. The rules either make a difference or they don't. The scenarios are almost identical, and by your own argument training for a BJJ match would improve your MMA grappling skills. Therefore, training for MMA would improve your self-defence related fighting skills, would it not? Therefore your learning curve would not be ruined?
    Yes, it would. In a completely different way than training Silat or FMA.

    You argued that you can't prove your art works in a full-contact situation because the techniques are too dangerous.
    Not all of them, just some of them. Just like any martial art used in a sport context, you have to either wind back the force or just not use them. Right? This isn't lost on you?

    Then, when I asked how you could train them effectively, you pointed out this gear. So I asked, why can that gear not be used to prove your art works in a full-contact situation?
    If gear in intended to allow the application of techniques while protecting your training partners, then WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

    Cool. In that case, if Silat trains you for a life-or-death situation, which is according to you far more stressful than a ring fight, it shouldn't take much to adapt it to the far less stressful rigours of a lil' ring fight...
    Of course it could be adapted to the ring. I never said that it couldn't be, I said that it WOULDN'T BE. Especially by me, or anyone I know who does Silat.

    A takedown is a takedown. If it gets the guy to the ground, it'll still work in MMA. If it doesn't work because it isn't followed up by a knee / kick to the head of the downed opponent, then it probably isn't a reliable takedown anyway. Also, stomping and kneeing on the ground IS allowed in some MMA rulesets.
    Really? Which rules will we be following then? & if stomps and knee drops to EFFECTIVE targets aren't allowed as applied in my art, then how should I deal with a downed opponent. Perhaps join him down there and get in a Brazilian horizontal hugging contest? Yeah, you'd like that, wouldn't you?

    So, you obviously have a problem with people who are asking for proof of its effectiveness. If you have this problem, prove it works. If not, and you don't care about personal validation, then why are you bothering to post things like the above to try and defend Silat.
    You're right. I'm not interested in proving Silat to anyone, especially you. Plane tickets are too expensive. & this conversation is useless otherwise, so...

    Conversation Over.
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 4/06/2009 12:08pm at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 12:10pm

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    Jim, I'm unclear as to why you are on Bullshido if you don't believe in A) proof by video or otherwise or B) posting without being a cockbag as well as not even explaining your point, and if you insist on believing that 1) MMA's rules (and any other ruleset) prohibit it from being an effective training paradigm and 2) that Silat somehow prepares for real confrontations in some undefined way that allows eye gouges and facebricksmashing and testicle tearing and the occasional Chevy.

    This conversation is not over--you are, in fact, not conversing at all. You are running your mouth in a sea of vomit conjured up by your own failure to say ANYTHING of use to the OP, who quite honestly put himself out there as willing to learn from precisely someone like you. Instead of capitalizing on that opportunity, you smashed it to smithereens. Congratulations, you are the diplomatic equivalent of George W. Bush in a steroid-induced rage.
  3. Hesperus is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 12:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I respect Jim_Jude less because of this thread.
  4. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 12:46pm


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is unfortunate, because on one hand there are skilled fighters out there who obviously find value in silat - Dan Inosanto, and the Dog Brothers, to name a few. Meanwhile, there's basically no video showing any real fighting prowess by anyone who claims silat as their sole training method. (demo's versus non-resisting partners, yes. Unrehearsed sparring, no)

    And, as far as I can tell, all that Jim_Jude has been able to provide us in the way of a tangible reason for the former is, it has interesting footwork, and knives; the latter, apparently is because there is a widely-practiced disinterest in showing the real goods.

    Well, knives make just about any empty-handed art into a complete horror-show, so we can discount that as a factor. No use saying "silat rocks, because we've got knives" since so would sport TKD if their practitioners had knives.

    It's sort of cold soup that we're being fed here: tentative evidence that silat is viable, but we don't get to see any tangible proof of it.
  5. grammatoncleric is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 12:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Really? Which rules will we be following then? & if stomps and knee drops to EFFECTIVE targets aren't allowed as applied in my art, then how should I deal with a downed opponent. Perhaps join him down there and get in a Brazilian horizontal hugging contest? Yeah, you'd like that, wouldn't you?

    You're right. I'm not interested in proving Silat to anyone, especially you. Plane tickets are too expensive. & this conversation is useless otherwise, so...

    Conversation Over.
    Jim, I don't know why you flipped out?

    What the guys are getting at is if you do not test your art under some conditions (MMA rules... whatever) then how do you know it is preparing you for 'the street'? Because of my previous experience with Silat, I'm curious.

    The better RBSD guys regularly have MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing as part of their curriculum because they themselves know and explain that you need to test your fighting ability and have a functional delivery system, they also have 'street' scenario replications using protective gear for the same reasons...

    Nobody doubts the dog brothers for their fighting ability with sticks and weapons even though they wear protective gear and have rules.

    What are you basing your confidence on?
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:09pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Jim, I'm unclear as to why you are on Bullshido if you don't believe in A) proof by video or otherwise...
    I "believe" in proof by video (or otherwise, whatever that means)

    ...or B) posting without being a cockbag as well as not even explaining your point, and if you insist on believing that 1) MMA's rules (and any other ruleset) prohibit it from being an effective training paradigm...
    Of course it's "effective", I don't recall saying that it's not "effective". Please show me where I said, or implied, that.

    ...and 2) that Silat somehow prepares for real confrontations in some undefined way that allows eye gouges and facebricksmashing and testicle tearing and the occasional Chevy.
    My particular form of Silat has techniques that are explicitly illegal in MMA works directly into almost every scenario response. Yes, I could participate in MMA using what techniques are legal, and I'd probably look very much like a Muay Thai fighter (standing), with more open hands and some funny looking sweeps & low kicks. However, since I'm not training for MMA but instead trying to learn this art IN IT'S ENTIRETY, which includes many weapons and many sport-illegal strikes, I am not interested in training for MMA. As I said before, it would impede my learning curve.

    This conversation is not over--you are, in fact, not conversing at all. You are running your mouth in a sea of vomit conjured up by your own failure to say ANYTHING of use to the OP, who quite honestly put himself out there as willing to learn from precisely someone like you. Instead of capitalizing on that opportunity, you smashed it to smithereens. Congratulations, you are the diplomatic equivalent of George W. Bush in a steroid-induced rage.
    Thanks for your opinion, & I heartily appreciate your congratulizations... :cry:
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    I respect Jim_Jude less because of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    I could give a rat's ass about this post.
    :tongue4:
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    It is unfortunate, because on one hand there are skilled fighters out there who obviously find value in silat - Dan Inosanto, and the Dog Brothers, to name a few. Meanwhile, there's basically no video showing any real fighting prowess by anyone who claims silat as their sole training method. (demo's versus non-resisting partners, yes. Unrehearsed sparring, no)

    And, as far as I can tell, all that Jim_Jude has been able to provide us in the way of a tangible reason for the former is, it has interesting footwork, and knives; the latter, apparently is because there is a widely-practiced disinterest in showing the real goods.
    This is a salient point. You want video proof? Great. I make all my little e-friends on Bullshido happy with some vids; meanwhile, I'm cordially invited to leave my current training and never come back. Sorry, I've got my priorities, and they have little to do with making people happy on the Internet.

    Well, knives make just about any empty-handed art into a complete horror-show, so we can discount that as a factor. No use saying "silat rocks, because we've got knives" since so would sport TKD if their practitioners had knives.

    It's sort of cold soup that we're being fed here: tentative evidence that silat is viable, but we don't get to see any tangible proof of it.
    Yeah, it's all anecdotal. Of course, one could just go train with a decent Silat group and maybe see for themselves, if not interested in taking someone's word for it.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  9. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The closed-door training mentality has been disproven in this modern age. I accept that you practice it, but if you won't show proof, STFU.

    As for "find a good Silat school," grow a brain, dipshit. What do we ask of everyone here when they say "find the real X"? What do we want to know? What specific things might you provide other than that, that could help us on this endeavor?

    You're a smart jerkoff. Figure it out and tell us.
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:39pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by grammatoncleric View Post
    Jim, I don't know why you flipped out?

    What the guys are getting at is if you do not test your art under some conditions (MMA rules... whatever) then how do you know it is preparing you for 'the street'? Because of my previous experience with Silat, I'm curious.

    The better RBSD guys regularly have MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing as part of their curriculum because they themselves know and explain that you need to test your fighting ability and have a functional delivery system, they also have 'street' scenario replications using protective gear for the same reasons...

    Nobody doubts the dog brothers for their fighting ability with sticks and weapons even though they wear protective gear and have rules.

    What are you basing your confidence on?
    I train hard with what I can without severely injuring my training partners, I cross train with other guys & even though they are happy boxing/kickboxing/grappling/whatever they're very interested in Silat & how I do what I do. As I said, I could easily pursue MMA competition as "validation" if I wanted to... I just don't want to. Mostly because my current schedule doesn't really allow for the enormous dedication of time and resources it would require.
    I've been doing martial arts for many many years, & everything that I've experienced of Silat so far reinforces what I've said in this thread.
    - Not all Pencak Silat styles are equal.
    - Most proof available to the general public that Silat is efective is either rare or anecdotal.
    - Quality Silat instruction is vary rare, especially in the U.S.

    If any of this is confusing, I'm sorry, but this is my experience. If it's a problem, I suggest you sic the Bullshido Inquisition on "Silat" and see how far it gets, beyond the conclusions that I've already arrived at.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

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