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  1. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2009 12:04am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Yes, I'm intimately aware.
    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Funny. In REAL LIFE one can see repeatedly that YOU FIGHT HOW YOU TRAIN. You can Google it yourself. It's a proven fact, it's actually resulted in deaths due to bad training.

    Ever hear of cops dying with empty brass in their hands because the department's range management doesn't like having to pick it up? Yeah, it's true, happened at least twice that I know of, word spread like wildfire and it stopped. Sorry kiddo, you can't out-think your training, especially when you're in the ****. You're reduced to the level of your training (or lack their of) every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    I would think that the participating in grappling tournaments would probably do more to improve the sport grappling aspect of your MMA sport performance than it would impede the learning curve. You do know that sport grappling is part & parcel to MMA training, don't you? On the other hand, someone that spends all their time training for grappling competition isn't spending their time practicing stand-up & striking at all, right? Their standup game suffers as a result, correct? Conversly, it's your standup game that you need in real life.
    Uh-uh. You fight like you train, yes. But my argument was this: Your mind does not become conditioned to always abide by the rules by which you compete. You've twisted my words to argue something different.

    I agree with you that competing in a grappling tournament would help your MMA skills, and that if you train only grappling that would be detrimental. However, that was not what you were suggesting. You were suggesting that training and competing with rules AT ALL conditions you to always abide by said rules.

    I assume this is the basis for your "ruining the learning curve" comment.

    See, my example of the grappling tournament holds true because if your mind was conditioned to abide by MMA rules (as you say your mind is conditioned to use "dangerous techniques" and therefore you would require counter-conditioning so as not to use them in the ring) then an MMA fighter / someone who has been training in striking would unconcsciously utilise strikes in their grappling tournament. This is not the case.

    And I would argue that striking and grappling are part and parcel of self-defence. So, by your own line of argument, training for and competing under an MMA ruleset would greatly help your self-defence skills and NOT ruin your learning curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    That's absolutely incorrect. Where did you hear that? I wouldn't take that person's advise anymore if I were you.
    Sorry, but it's a simple fact. The rule disparity between MMA and BJJ is greater than that between MMA and no rules at all. Discounting weapons, that is.

    The unified mixed martial arts rules state:

    (a) The following are fouls and will result in penalties if committed:
    1. Butting with the head;
    2. Eye gouging of any kind;
    3. Biting or spitting at an opponent;
    4. Hair pulling;
    5. Fish hooking;
    6. Groin attacks of any kind;
    7. Intentionally placing a finger in any opponent’s orifice;
    8. Downward pointing of elbow strikes;
    9. Small joint manipulation;
    10. Strikes to the spine or back of the head;
    11. Heel kicks to the kidney;
    12. Throat strikes of any kind;
    13. Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle;
    14. Kicking the head of a grounded fighter;
    15. Kneeing the head of a grounded fighter;
    16. Stomping of a grounded fighter;
    17. The use of abusive language in fighting area;
    18. Any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to opponent;
    19. Attacking an opponent on or during the break;
    20. Attacking an opponent who is under the referee’s care at the time;
    21. Timidity (avoiding contact, or consistent dropping of mouthpiece, or faking an injury);
    22. Interference from a mixed martial artists seconds;
    23. Throwing an opponent out of the fighting area;
    24. Flagrant disregard of the referee’s instructions;
    25. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his or her head or neck.




    Out of these 25 rules, 18 deal with techniques themselves. Not including weapons, that's 18 things you can do in an actual confrontation that you cannot in the ring. The rule disparity between BJJ and MMA is far, far greater; in a grappling tournament you cannot utilise strikes of any kind and there are hundreds of other rules.

    Ergo, the rule disparity is greater. The argument as to whether or not the psychological disparity or safety disparity is greater is irrelevant because that was not what I was saying; I was speaking about rulesets.

    Therefore, by your own argument, if someone who is training MMA were to train and compete in a grappling tournament, it would ruin their learning curve for MMA because they would be conditioned to abide by grappling rules.

    This is the same as what you are saying, which is that you cannot train and compete in an MMA tournament because you believe you will be conditioned to follow those rules and it will ruin your learning curve for what you are currently doing, the techniques in which you claim are "too dangerous" for you to even prove they work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    A cup helps. Also items like this:





    Isn't the existence of such equipment more than enough evidence, as their creation was due to necessity?
    These items are available. So what's the problem with using these items to actually prove what you're doing is effective?

    As I have said already, evidence of pressure testing and what you're doing working under pressure would be more than enough for me.

    But hey, you seem to have completely ignored that in favour of convincing yourself that I'm another filthy closed-minded sports advocate not worth your time to convince.

    See? I can sterotype too, "kiddo".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Did ya think before you posted any of this?
    And, ah look, your witty and clever end riposte again. I hope it makes you feel good.
  2. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2009 12:13am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's not entirely true. I predominantly trained in Muay Thai and Boxing before I got into my first 'street' scuffle and I eye gouged my opponent, that wasn't something I trained to do. I also didn't get him in a clinch and throw knees and low kicks although that was something that I trained to do. I also had a friend who was ex military and had only trained in boxing, in a fight he would headbutt, and had survived multiple opponent situations (not just using punching) on several occassions.

    I agree that training does take over in 'the thick of it' but intent will change how a person fights... If my intent is to beat u into a bloody pulp by any means necessary, then any means will be used to do so; my body, an object or smashing u into something (which is the same intent my friend has, and 'street' guys have).
    Exactly. I train with a guy who, until he started training here, only trained in wrestling. He ended up finishing a fight when, after having taken down his assailant and punched him in the face a little, the guy bit and latched onto his ear. He headbutted the gentleman's face into the ground repeatedly until he let go.

    I'm definitely not sold on the "training conditions your mind to abide by rules" argument. It's spouted by far too many Bujinkan advocates and I don't think it's true at all.

    Yes, you fight like you train. But not to that degree IMO.

    After all, in that case, if you've got someone who trains and competes in BJJ, full-contact and point-sparring, is he (in an actual confrontation) going to pull guard, punch the guy in the face really hard or stop his 540 spinning heel kick a centimetre from his attacker's face?

    Which ruleset will he be conditioned to abide by?

    EDIT: Sorry about the double-post.
  3. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2009 6:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    Exactly. I train with a guy who, until he started training here, only trained in wrestling. He ended up finishing a fight when, after having taken down his assailant and punched him in the face a little, the guy bit and latched onto his ear. He headbutted the gentleman's face into the ground repeatedly until he let go.

    I'm definitely not sold on the "training conditions your mind to abide by rules" argument. It's spouted by far too many Bujinkan advocates and I don't think it's true at all.

    Yes, you fight like you train. But not to that degree IMO.

    After all, in that case, if you've got someone who trains and competes in BJJ, full-contact and point-sparring, is he (in an actual confrontation) going to pull guard, punch the guy in the face really hard or stop his 540 spinning heel kick a centimetre from his attacker's face?

    Which ruleset will he be conditioned to abide by?

    EDIT: Sorry about the double-post.

    And just for the record, I am way more fucking scared of getting into a street fight with a stud wrestler than I am with a retard who's likely to bite my ear.

    Anybody who brings up Tyson, **** you. He's not a retard and yes I am scared of him.

    The idiot in the above scenario who acts like the lovechild of Hannibal Lecter and Van Gogh, however, scares me much less.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:44am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley View Post
    Uh-uh. You fight like you train, yes. But my argument was this: Your mind does not become conditioned to always abide by the rules by which you compete. You've twisted my words to argue something different.
    & the funny thing is, you think your mind has a fucking thing to do with the fight while the **** is still hitting the fan. A lil' ring fight doesn't do anything close to your mental processes that a life-or-death situation does. Pros & soldiers, and those who've actually fought for their lives know this.

    I agree with you that competing in a grappling tournament would help your MMA skills, and that if you train only grappling that would be detrimental. However, that was not what you were suggesting. You were suggesting that training and competing with rules AT ALL conditions you to always abide by said rules.

    I assume this is the basis for your "ruining the learning curve" comment.
    No, that's not what I meant. Not directly anyway.

    Sorry, but it's a simple fact. The rule disparity between MMA and BJJ is greater than that between MMA and no rules at all. Discounting weapons, that is.

    The unified mixed martial arts rules state:
    [...]
    Out of these 25 rules, 18 deal with techniques themselves. Not including weapons, that's 18 things you can do in an actual confrontation that you cannot in the ring. The rule disparity between BJJ and MMA is far, far greater; in a grappling tournament you cannot utilise strikes of any kind and there are hundreds of other rules.

    Ergo, the rule disparity is greater. The argument as to whether or not the psychological disparity or safety disparity is greater is irrelevant because that was not what I was saying; I was speaking about rulesets.
    So you think that the difference between "Sport Grappling with rules" and "Sport Striking&Grappling with rules" is vastly greater than "Sport Striking&Grappling with rules" and "Life or Death, Bring Any Weapons and/or Friends, Anything Goes"??? Yeah, I don't wanna talk about that any more. You keep thinking that.

    Therefore, by your own argument, if someone who is training MMA were to train and compete in a grappling tournament, it would ruin their learning curve for MMA because they would be conditioned to abide by grappling rules.
    No. I meant what I said, and I said it ^above^. Go read it again if you like.

    This is the same as what you are saying, which is that you cannot train and compete in an MMA tournament because you believe you will be conditioned to follow those rules and it will ruin your learning curve for what you are currently doing, the techniques in which you claim are "too dangerous" for you to even prove they work.
    Yes, it would ruin my learning curve for my style of Silat, as I'd have to quit my training to take up MMA training, which doesn't include many tactics I train to use, including weapons. This isn't rocket science, is it???
    & yes, many of the things I train to use are explicity illegal in MMA, so I won't be able to use them, right? Been discussed before.

    These items are available. So what's the problem with using these items to actually prove what you're doing is effective?
    ???????

    As I have said already, evidence of pressure testing and what you're doing working under pressure would be more than enough for me.
    But hey, you seem to have completely ignored that in favour of convincing yourself that I'm another filthy closed-minded sports advocate not worth your time to convince.

    See? I can sterotype too, "kiddo".
    That's nice. Next time I'm looking for validation, I'll make sure to think of you.
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 4/06/2009 1:47am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 1:51am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    Anybody who brings up Tyson, **** you. He's not a retard and yes I am scared of him.
    My girlfriend loves Tyson, she said he could eat her anytime.
    I said,"You'd let Mike Tyson eat you? That's ludicrous!"
    :happy3:
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 2:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ahhh, whatever.

    The thing with knives is you DO NOT NEED TO HIT HARD. You barely need to be accurate, but it certaintly helps. The protective equipment posted above^is total bullshit for knife/stickfighting. Escrima in armor is a joke, IMO.

    Sharpie fights give you the idea, in effect, but not enough psychological impact. Sports competition is chosen by militaries as a good training simulation and to build aggression. But shoving a cold steel blade into someone's gut is another thing altogether.

    Does Jim_Jude have this? That's up to him. I doubt that I do, I like to not fool myself that -even if I carry a quick-opening folder and have done alot of work with trainers- I'm probably not ready to use it on another human being. I just can't imagine the necessity. I've structured my life so that, hopefully, I never have to test these skills.

    I think it is crucial to understand this head-space and to not be lulled into a sense of security or superiority regarding life and death issues. People watch way too may Kung Fu movies and think that that+riorous training is all the preparation they need for lethal force.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  7. grammatoncleric is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 6:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theotherserge View Post
    I've structured my life so that, hopefully, I never have to test these skills.

    I think it is crucial to understand this head-space and to not be lulled into a sense of security or superiority regarding life and death issues. People watch way too may Kung Fu movies and think that that+riorous training is all the preparation they need for lethal force.
    Our initial introduction on a previous thread wasn't very cordial but anyway...

    That was one of the most intelligent posts I've ever read in a martial arts forum. It took my years to understand the truth of what you said because I was driven by deep insecurity, paranoia and the bullshido of RBSD and TMA marketing.

    I hope to God I never get into another fight as long as I live. I only recently realized major contributing factors of the paranoid wannabe knife fighter/street fighter :qleft3:that alot of RBSD people seem to desire and market towards.

    It's not realizing that situational awareness and understanding the 'rituals' of violent people/criminals is the major and most important aspect of self defence. Also not practicing with aliveness so people have an objective basis for evaluating their skills, and not honestly looking at your own heart and possible insecurities motivating you to want to becaome 'uber deadly'.

    Sorry if that seemed like pretentious drivel to anyone... but if someone would have laid that out to me early on in my life and emphasized it in my martial arts classes.... maybe I wouldn't have lost my job because of Macho BS and getting into a scuffle.

    Again great post man... wish there were more martial arts teachers who had that kind of honesty instead of... 'I may kill people who try to shoot me (wrestling) cos my technique is so deadly'.

    Maybe this is off topic... but then again...

    Regards.
  8. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 7:09am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    & the funny thing is, you think your mind has a fucking thing to do with the fight while the **** is still hitting the fan. A lil' ring fight doesn't do anything close to your mental processes that a life-or-death situation does. Pros & soldiers, and those who've actually fought for their lives know this.
    Your mind has everything to do with it. Believe it or not your brain does not disconnect from your body just because it's a life or death situation.

    If an art claims to deal with life or death situations such as you are describing, then it needs to deal with far more serious negative impacts and should therefore be subject to even more rigorous testing than our inferior sports arts. So, is there some evidence of this kind of testing about? I'm geniunely interested now.

    The short-term negative impacts of stress still apply regardless of the cause of that stress. I'm not sure at all what your point is here, but relating this to the battlefield is escalating it further than it needs to go.


    Are you saying someone who gets mugged and has the crap beaten out of them doesn't understand real life situations or have real life experience? Oh, of course. Only soldiers need to know how to defend themselves, and only soldiers understand what danger means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    So you think that the difference between "Sport Grappling with rules" and "Sport Striking&Grappling with rules" is vastly greater than "Sport Striking&Grappling with rules" and "Life or Death, Bring Any Weapons and/or Friends, Anything Goes"??? Yeah, I don't wanna talk about that any more. You keep thinking that.
    I SPECIFICALLY stated that I was discounting weapons from this. You're trying to bring this argument to a different level to allow yourself to shrug it off.

    The direct rule disparity is greater. As I specifically said, I am not talking about mental differences. The only techniques you cannot use in the cage are stated in those rules.

    Therefore, discounting weapons and multiple opponents (which, again, I stated BEFORE making that example, and these situations are totally different anyway, in that Run-Fu is the only effective art) the rule difference is greater between grappling tournaments and MMA than the difference in allowed techniques between MMA and the real world.

    You can start talking about brick walls, broken glass and lava all you like, but these only result in strategic differences and to argue differently is semantic and irrelevant.

    By extension of this, in connection with your argument that:
    I'd have to quit my training to take up MMA training, which doesn't include many tactics I train to use, including weapons. This isn't rocket science, is it???
    & yes, many of the things I train to use are explicity illegal in MMA, so I won't be able to use them, right? Been discussed before.
    Then someone competing in a BJJ tournament will need to take up pure BJJ training for an extended period of time (I'm assuming you think it's an extended period of time because you seem to believe it would be a huge waste of yours) in order to "decondition" themselves so they don't punch their opponent into the ground.

    After all, it isn't rocket science. Many of the techniques they would use in MMA are illegal in BJJ, so they wouldn't be able to use them, right?

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. The rules either make a difference or they don't. The scenarios are almost identical, and by your own argument training for a BJJ match would improve your MMA grappling skills. Therefore, training for MMA would improve your self-defence related fighting skills, would it not? Therefore your learning curve would not be ruined?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    ???????
    You argued that you can't prove your art works in a full-contact situation because the techniques are too dangerous. Then, when I asked how you could train them effectively, you pointed out this gear. So I asked, why can that gear not be used to prove your art works in a full-contact situation?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    A lil' ring fight doesn't do anything close to your mental processes that a life-or-death situation does.
    Cool. In that case, if Silat trains you for a life-or-death situation, which is according to you far more stressful than a ring fight, it shouldn't take much to adapt it to the far less stressful rigours of a lil' ring fight.

    After all, a martial art shouldn't change drastically just because it's designed to not abide by rules. Its basic systems should still be just as effective without utilising its more dangerous techniques. If it isn't, and is therefore reliant on those dangerous techniques, then I would seriously question its effectiveness (academically, of course, but nevertheless).


    Oh, didn't notice this before:

    However, in Silat, most if not all of the sweeps or takedowns are followed by stomping the downed opponent or aiming to kick or knee the head, which are largely considered illegal in MMA.
    A takedown is a takedown. If it gets the guy to the ground, it'll still work in MMA. If it doesn't work because it isn't followed up by a knee / kick to the head of the downed opponent, then it probably isn't a reliable takedown anyway. Also, stomping and kneeing on the ground IS allowed in some MMA rulesets.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I am, after all, a noob with only 100 posts and should not challenge your regal quadruple digit wisdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    That's nice. Next time I'm looking for validation, I'll make sure to think of you.
    This isn't about your personal validation. TheMightyMcClaw stated his problem with Silat. Your first post was reasonable. Then you exploded into this sort of thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Why look to Silat for something profound? Of course, Silat loves elbows to the head. Where are they allowed in MMA?
    No eye gouging? No hair pulling? No strikes to the back of the head or spine? No throat strikes? NO GROIN ATTACKS??? These are part and parcel to Pencak Silat!
    So, you obviously have a problem with people who are asking for proof of its effectiveness. If you have this problem, prove it works. If not, and you don't care about personal validation, then why are you bothering to post things like the above to try and defend Silat.

    And no offence, but almost every single one of the videos you've posted have given me serious Bujinkan flashbacks.
  9. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 8:49am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theotherserge View Post
    ahhh, whatever.

    The thing with knives is you DO NOT NEED TO HIT HARD. You barely need to be accurate, but it certaintly helps. The protective equipment posted above^is total bullshit for knife/stickfighting. Escrima in armor is a joke, IMO.

    .
    Thrusts can take a fair amount of force if you end up hitting the upper chest, but the way most people use the tool it's unlikely (repeated rising thrust from the hip). Slashes take relatively little force compared, but are significantly less deadly.
  10. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2009 10:50am

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    Thrusts can take a fair amount of force if you end up hitting the upper chest, but the way most people use the tool it's unlikely (repeated rising thrust from the hip). Slashes take relatively little force compared, but are significantly less deadly.
    true, but do you think there is real benefit to training with a neck-brace? One of the areas that definitely can be lightly slashed and is both frightening and fatal?

    Training a stab is more difficult, not just as a technique, but as there is a distinct psychological difference between slicing someone and stabbing, which is a penetration and kind of intimate in a weird fashion. I recall that Fairbain had some difficulty getting even hardened commandos to train with the triangular, stab-only stiletto that he had developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by grammatoncleric
    It's not realizing that situational awareness and understanding the 'rituals' of violent people/criminals is the major and most important aspect of self defence. Also not practicing with aliveness so people have an objective basis for evaluating their skills, and not honestly looking at your own heart and possible insecurities motivating you to want to becaome 'uber deadly'.
    yup^training for a fight, deadly or not, isn't just a smattering of techniques and "intensity". LEOs I work with understand how much street-awareness weighs in on these situations. It confirms what my Sambo coach passed on to us. Very little of it is actual fighting skill: psychological preparation, honesty with yourself and your students, the hard-won process of shedding delusions etc. All figure in more significantly.

    regards,
    serge
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)

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