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  1. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 1:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    It depends, are you going to take it personal or are you going to respect my opinion?
    No.

    I don't do BJJ, so I have no personal or emotional stake in this, and "respecting opinions" is politically correct nanny bullshit. I will respect your opinion only if it merits respect, expecting it from me no matter what inanity you dribble out is ludicrous.
  2. jimmywangyu is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 2:45pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    No.

    I don't do BJJ, so I have no personal or emotional stake in this, and "respecting opinions" is politically correct nanny bullshit. I will respect your opinion only if it merits respect, expecting it from me no matter what inanity you dribble out is ludicrous.
    Fair enough.

    Here is what I feel are silly techniques & tactics:

    The Jump Guard - it might have worked in UFC 1, but its ...quite simply easy way to own yourself

    The mindset that you can just barge in to tackle and take everyone to the ground - you cant just rush in like that, a good muay thai, shuai jiao or judo guy, will just easily reverse you, or just deck you in the face, or clinch you and knee you

    Ground Hugging - once you have your opponent on the ground, what is the point of all the mindless grappling? I understand the ruleset in MMA, but why not just boot the guy in the face, or stomp him in the face...ends it in a matter of miliseconds, rather than minutes. & if you have the mount, why not just quicky stand up, and kick the guy in the face?

    Going To Guard Quickly - if someone shoots on you, and you have a chance to sprawl, and possibly reverse it, why not do that, instead of just letting him take you down into your guard

    Not Letting Go of Holds - the techniques work, but not on everyone. Understand, if you try a triangle or an armbar on a stronger person, they will just bodyslam, or powerbomb you. There is no point in mindlessly holding onto a technique if its not working

    Throwing Techniques - I have always wondered why, even though there are throwing techniques in BJJ, that I have never seen any of them attempt any other throw/takedown than the tackle? I find people who do sambo, judo or shuai jiao, have better takedown & throwing techniques

    Striking Techniques - you need to add some boxing, sanshou, muay thai, kenpo, and whatever striking arts, cause I havent seen a pure BJJ guy throw a good punch

    Training with the Gi-only - why not train with normal clothes? practice the chokes and holds with the gi-lapels on normal clothing, so that you can pull it off when needed on a normal tshirt

    Armbar from the ground - I have always wondered why you dont kick the guy in the face first, then transition into the armbar, the move is available, bring your leg over, and kick the guy in the face, then armbar.

    I'm only a beginner, and those are the loopholes I see
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 4:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    YouTube - Silat Tapak Suci


    Just click on the link, since the upgrade embedding youtube clips is ****.
    Last edited by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs; 4/04/2009 4:37pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. thatrugbyguy is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 4:34pm


     Style: Krotty/Crapple/Goonery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    I'm only a beginner, and that's why every one of my above points is either blatantly wrong, or an exaggeration of gross proportions.
    Fixed that for you.

    I'm still a BJJ beginner myself so I will leave it to others to dissect your argument in detail, but hell even I know that the above is total bullshit.
    Last edited by thatrugbyguy; 4/04/2009 4:43pm at .
  5. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 5:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    It depends, are you going to take it personal or are you going to respect my opinion?
    In case you plan on sticking around here, let me give you a piece of advice.

    The best part about this advice is that it carries itself off the interwebs and back to the real world were advice used to be dispensed over strong liquor.


    The fastest fucking way to never get respect is to ask for it.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  6. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 5:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    The Jump Guard - it might have worked in UFC 1, but its ...quite simply easy way to own yourself
    That's one of those things that you see work because both guys are playing the same game. I don't think a single competent BJJ instructor is going to tell you to do that in a street fight or for mixed martial arts.

    This is the kind of technique that ends up in a guys game because he has significant success with it. Otherwise if the guy's a smart fighter, it gets scrapped.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    The mindset that you can just barge in to tackle and take everyone to the ground - you cant just rush in like that, a good muay thai, shuai jiao or judo guy, will just easily reverse you, or just deck you in the face, or clinch you and knee you
    If it looks like barging in to you, you're not paying attention. And you're argument has been proven wrong about as often as the one about the earth being flat or that the sun revolves around it. Fact is, sometimes you can stop a guy with a strike, but often his momentum carries you both to the ground anyway. Have you ever tried to knee a competent wrestler or grappler in the face when they shoot?

    Try it. It's a strange angle. Not gonna work. Nobody has been stupid enough to make that a good plan for takedown defense since UFC 1. Oh, and judo guys often use the same takedowns. As for shuai jiao, well, that's a solid style. But in competition, single and double legs aren't used.

    Now if you're talking about lazy takedowns, then I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes people are just happy to drag the guy to the ground so they can go to work. No it doesn't look good, but ****, if the guy ends up on the ground then it worked. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Ground Hugging - once you have your opponent on the ground, what is the point of all the mindless grappling? I understand the ruleset in MMA, but why not just boot the guy in the face, or stomp him in the face...ends it in a matter of miliseconds, rather than minutes. & if you have the mount, why not just quicky stand up, and kick the guy in the face?
    Grappling is a lot of things. Mindless is not one of them. You should really try and do some of these things with a decent grappling.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Going To Guard Quickly - if someone shoots on you, and you have a chance to sprawl, and possibly reverse it, why not do that, instead of just letting him take you down into your guard
    Because they're able to finish the fight from their guard. That's where their comfort zone is. But sometimes, the sprawl fails. It is worth point out that a solid takedown is designed to pass the guard. That's the ideal.

    But it's a fight, and everybody has a plan until **** starts happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Not Letting Go of Holds - the techniques work, but not on everyone. Understand, if you try a triangle or an armbar on a stronger person, they will just bodyslam, or powerbomb you. There is no point in mindlessly holding onto a technique if its not working
    Sometimes. Sometimes not. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but a lot of it sounds like conjecture and ignorance. That's not meant as an insult. I just don't think you know what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Throwing Techniques - I have always wondered why, even though there are throwing techniques in BJJ, that I have never seen any of them attempt any other throw/takedown than the tackle? I find people who do sambo, judo or shuai jiao, have better takedown & throwing techniques
    You don't watch enough BJJ players. Grapplers with a wrestling background will often revert to what they know, that is, single and double legs.

    Also, as opposed to throwing, these are often high percentage moves that are easier to teach. Grip fighting and throwin with the gi is hard. No gi it's ever harder. There's a lot happening in that clinch that only the two men in the circle are fully aware of.



    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Striking Techniques - you need to add some boxing, sanshou, muay thai, kenpo, and whatever striking arts, cause I havent seen a pure BJJ guy throw a good punch
    I can't even touch this one. Somebody else do it. Use a long stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Training with the Gi-only - why not train with normal clothes? practice the chokes and holds with the gi-lapels on normal clothing, so that you can pull it off when needed on a normal tshirt
    It's the same ****. That's why there is also NO GI training.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Armbar from the ground - I have always wondered why you dont kick the guy in the face first, then transition into the armbar, the move is available, bring your leg over, and kick the guy in the face, then armbar.
    Because the rules of most sporting events prohibit that, but it's also going to make it easier for the guy to reverse if you take your weight and control off of him long enough to kick him. ANd besides, from that position it's going to be hard to generate much force. Why not just armbar him and have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    I'm only a beginner, and those are the loopholes I see
    If you're only a beginner why are you popping off at the mouth? Give it a few months. I reccomend you join an MMA school instead, if this is the kind of thing you want to explore.

    Get your ass beat some. It'll be good for you. ANd no, I'm not being threatening or hostile. I'm totally serious. Get your ass beat. You'll learn tons.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  7. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 7:00pm

    supporting member
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    The mindset that you can just barge in to tackle and take everyone to the ground - you cant just rush in like that, a good muay thai, shuai jiao or judo guy, will just easily reverse you, or just deck you in the face, or clinch you and knee you
    No.

    I'm only a beginner, and those are the loopholes I see
    Tell you what. I'll do a Pride rules match with you and it will begin with me jumping guard and end with me armbarring, omoplataing or triangling you.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  8. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 8:21pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Fair enough.

    Here is what I feel are silly techniques & tactics:
    Here's what I feel is silly about you, jimmywangyu: starting from a position of having significant empirical evidence that people who've trained in BJJ have historically wrecked those who haven't in unarmed one on one cagefight situations, you've managed to convince yourself that their victory is more or less impossible. I applaud your mental contortionism, but it makes you look like the worst kind of idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    The mindset that you can just barge in to tackle and take everyone to the ground - you cant just rush in like that, a good muay thai, shuai jiao or judo guy, will just easily reverse you, or just deck you in the face, or clinch you and knee you
    Fundamental misunderstanding number one: muay thai does not give you any significant capability to avoid being taken down, which is one reason why the Japanese have fed huge, burly strikers to small, scrawny grapplers for years as freakshows, with the grappler almost always winning.

    Secondly, it's very hard to avoid going to the ground with someone who doesn't care what position they'll be in when they get there even if you are good at stand-up grappling. If you're going to stop them doing that, you need enough ground grappling skill of your own to make them fear landing in a less dominant position.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Ground Hugging - once you have your opponent on the ground, what is the point of all the mindless grappling? I understand the ruleset in MMA, but why not just boot the guy in the face, or stomp him in the face...ends it in a matter of miliseconds, rather than minutes. & if you have the mount, why not just quicky stand up, and kick the guy in the face?
    Because booting the **** out of an opponent on the ground is much harder than you might think, when he knows what he's doing. The guy up top is vulnerable to upkicks and a wide array of guard sweeps which threaten to land him on his back with an aggressive guy on top of him punching his lights out. For these reasons, you tend to see more kick-the-legs-from-a-distance-to-weaken-them behaviour even in promotions which allow stomping downed opponents, like Pride did.

    If, however, you control the guy and can be sure he won't reverse you and make you trouble, you can smack him in the head all day if you want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Going To Guard Quickly - if someone shoots on you, and you have a chance to sprawl, and possibly reverse it, why not do that, instead of just letting him take you down into your guard
    It's situational, but having someone in your guard is a more neutral position than having them past your guard and free to wreak havoc, so if there's a chance that they'll complete the takedown if you don't switch to guard, risk minimisation dictates a switch to guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Not Letting Go of Holds - the techniques work, but not on everyone. Understand, if you try a triangle or an armbar on a stronger person, they will just bodyslam, or powerbomb you. There is no point in mindlessly holding onto a technique if its not working
    Don't be fucking retarded. Seriously. Triangling and armbarring much stronger people works very, very well, and the history of mixed martial arts is so chock-full of examples of this that the only explanations I can conceive of for your comment are either profound ignorance, or profound stupidity. We could mention Royce Gracie himself, or Fedor and Hong Man Choi, Akiyama and Frans Botha... there any number of major size mismatches which resulted in submissions. Slamming people works sometimes, but it's not guaranteed to break a hold or hurt them significantly, and while you're messing about lifting for the slam, they're putting you out or taking your arm off. They're grapplers, for ****'s sake. They know how to fall.

    And this is assuming that they fucked up enough to let you lift them. If they get the position right, you just won't have enough leverage to power out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Throwing Techniques - I have always wondered why, even though there are throwing techniques in BJJ, that I have never seen any of them attempt any other throw/takedown than the tackle? I find people who do sambo, judo or shuai jiao, have better takedown & throwing techniques
    The shoot, not the tackle, and the issue is that sambo, judo and shuai jiao as generally practised all rely to some extent on having gi grips which are unavailable in no-gi fighting; hence wrestling's comparative popularity.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Training with the Gi-only - why not train with normal clothes? practice the chokes and holds with the gi-lapels on normal clothing, so that you can pull it off when needed on a normal tshirt
    Again, don't be stupid. You can pull off stuff a few times on normal clothing, but sooner or later it stretches out of shape and is wrecked. You need something much harder wearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    Armbar from the ground - I have always wondered why you dont kick the guy in the face first, then transition into the armbar, the move is available, bring your leg over, and kick the guy in the face, then armbar.
    Because strikes are not mystical death touches which automagically incapacitate people; you can kick a guy in the face, and maybe he's got a bit of a sore face, but he's escaped the hold that would have broken his arm and is ready to fight on. He's not even necessarily going to flinch, particularly if you're not kicking from a position where you can generate much power.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmywangyu View Post
    I'm only a beginner, and those are the loopholes I see
    Listen up. Before you form an opinion on something, try and gather some facts. Don't sit round pulling ideas out of your arse with nothing to base them on. If you watch a whole bunch of fights and people do things that you don't think should work, but they seem to work anyway, don't jump to the conclusion that it's because their opponents are all too stupid to spot the thing that's totally obvious to you. You are not smarter than they are. Look into it. Ask people who know more than you. Gather some fucking data. Best of all, go try a few classes at an MMA place and ask some of those questions there and get people to demonstrate to you first-hand why things are done the way they are.
  9. The Fake Macoy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 9:19pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I feel that video evidence (since these videos are awesome) is necessary here. See what good trying to slam through a triangle does for Manhoef:
    YouTube - Mousasi vs Manhoef

    Here's Genki Sudo destroying people with flying triangles. If you watch, you can see that it is not only very hard for people to slam in a submission, but when the 3rd guy tries, the triangle just tightens.

    YouTube - Genki Sudo in Westside Tournament

    Like many far more experienced and better people than myself have said, slamming doesn't always work.
  10. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2009 10:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That series of wonderful posts is what I hoped would happen after he finally stated his argument.

    Mission accomplished.

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