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  1. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2009 11:21pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Looks like we're halfway to declaring Silat to be a case of "yeah, there's good schools here and there, but mostly it sucks." Which, BTW, is how I regard my own style of karate.

    Plus, Jim Jude, be careful before you cast yourself as a Victor Parlatti here. "OMG a video would be soooooo hard."
  2. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2009 11:27pm

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     Style: MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Looks like we're halfway to declaring Silat to be a case of "yeah, there's good schools here and there, but mostly it sucks." Which, BTW, is how I regard my own style of karate.
    While I don't necessarily disagree, I never really liked this chain of logic. It seems to be just a bit too popular amongst CMA larpers, people on MAP, and other such knaves. I feel like it's a bit of a cop-out: "Oh yeah, it's not our style that's the problem; it's just the overwhelming majority of the people who practice it. But me, ha, I've got the REAL Silat/Kung Fu/Ninjutsu/Grand Celestial Do. Cause it's the practicioner, not the art, right?"
    Last edited by TheMightyMcClaw; 4/01/2009 11:31pm at .
  3. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2009 11:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    I suppose it stands as evidence that Silat works alright when mixed with FMA, Krabi Krabong/Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiujitsu.
    Many styles of Silat work alright on their own, just as many styles of Jujutsu work alright on their own (the Brazilian variety included).

    God forbid someone on Bullshido should ask that the ring record of a martial art's practicioners being taken into account when judging it. Who would ask such an outlandish thing? Some scoundrel, no doubt.
    Why, it's not as though such hatefully maligned arts as Taekwondo (http://www.wat.tv/video/serkan-yilma...0uc_xug3_.html),
    Capoeira(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZljCjwBteM), and Five Animal Kung Fu (http://www.jasondelucia.com/kungfu.htm) have been able to rise to such a challenge.
    If someone could consider for a moment that there are martial arts out there that never considered a planned & premeditated unarmed ring fight to be the standard for what works. You think BJJ is so bad ass because it works in the ring? Take your average BJJ fighter, buy him a plane ticket to Jakarta, send him down the wrong alley & have him pick a fight. He might find himself in some very deep ****
    (if you do not bring a knife, one WILL NOT be provided for you)

    I would really hate to think that you had wasted your time trying to prove a point on Bullshido. That would just be terrible.
    Sorry, you're the one that made the claim that "Silat sucks", fueled by your bad experience with one particular style of Silat, and then provided very stringent standards by which you might possibly be persuaded otherwise. Imagine if you went out and did some particularly shitty style of Jujutsu and then made the claim "Jujutsu Sucks! I know because my experience with one sole style of Jujutsu proved it!". You would be WAY OFF BASE.

    Likewise, your ignorance of Silat overall has led you to a false conclusion that "Silat Sucks". Just because I disagree with you, that doesn't obligate me to you in any way. You made a strongly implied claim that "Silat Sucks". How would you know if all you've (supposedly) done is one particularly **** style of Silat and then watched some videos on the Internet. Sorry, you're not qualified to make that claim.

    However, there are VERY QUALIFIED martial artists whose testimony we have access to who say Silat is good ****. Who should we believe, guys like Don Draeger, Bruce Lee, & Dan Inosanto? or you? Hmmm?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  4. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2009 11:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Take your average BJJ fighter, buy him a plane ticket to Jakarta, send him down the wrong alley & have him pick a fight. He might find himself in some very deep ****
    (if you do not bring a knife, one WILL NOT be provided for you)
    Okay.
    He's a bit above average, and I guess technically it's Bali, and not Jakarta. But otherwise, pretty good.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg...x=0&playnext=1

    Anyways, I would presume you have a story about a Silat guy doing the same? I'd love to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    However, there are VERY QUALIFIED martial artists whose testimony we have access to who say Silat is good ****. Who should we believe, guys like Don Draeger, Bruce Lee, & Dan Inosanto? or you? Hmmm?
    ....
    ....
    Did you just referred to Bruce Lee as "VERY QUALIFIED"? In all caps and everything? Seriously?
    Last edited by TheMightyMcClaw; 4/01/2009 11:55pm at .
  5. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/01/2009 11:53pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's all well and good, but where are the videos?
  6. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2009 11:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found this, which is "Combat Silat / Kali" knife sparring with headgear. To my untrained eye, it looks fairly good. Thoughts?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djlihBiq90Y

    As for "well it's a knife art and not a sporty sporting bullshit sport-type ring-only sport that people only do for sport...not the STREETS OF JAKARTA"...what would be acceptable criteria for evidence of worth, Jim? I can think of half a dozen quick videos that would make me say "Hey, yeah, it's a martial art that's oriented towards matched and unmatched weapon and unarmed combat, and it can be done well."

    Here's my half dozen, just off the top of my head (hey, these would work for Wing Chun too!):
    - Multiple opponent sparring where the attackers clinch, win sometimes, attack simultaneously, and hit. http://tdatraining.blogspot.com/ (currently inactive but live link) has done this a few times, in the RBSD-meets-boxing-meets-eye-gouges mentality.

    - Knife vs. unarmed with clinch, striking, and both partners trying to win. Tazer (Army Combatives, anyone?), marker, or just well-maintained realistic mindset would be fine.

    - Video of sparring in class or at a throwdown or at a competition, with comparison to a form or demo'd technique. The CMA forum is chock-full of these (Part Wild Horse's Mane, kick catches, leg sweeps, Brush Knee, Baji stuff, Taiji stuff, Xingyi stuff...the list goes on).

    - Video of a technique drilled alive and explained (in the video or in text).

    - Video of a form, plus explanation of one or two techniques, plus examples of these techniques in real fights or sparring elsewhere (even by a nonpractitioner--just an example of such a technique being a part of real fighting). This one's a low marker.

    - Comparison to another style's takedowns, kicks, head strikes, knife techniques, whatever. This could be a discussion, with video or pictorial examples, that engages the difference of principle or technique.

    - Video of whatever training you do that makes you think you're the Badass In Charge of Jakarta's Dark Alleys.

    If none of these fit a Silat proponent's criteria of "showing good Silat," then they can suggest their own and find or create it. But "I say it's good and so does Don Draeger and yeah, shut up" is not sufficient evidence for anyone except your children below age 8.
  7. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2009 1:45am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never formally studied silat, but I've gotten some drills and such here and there from various SE Asian hodgepodge sources. Some elements in silat that I've found useful in sparring:
    -the false lead: some silat uses a stance that is very opposite that of most other styles. The leading hand is the back hand, not the front one. The idea is that it sets up a strong lead strike and emulates how people naturally walk (when you walk, your opposite arm and leg swing forward, not the same side). When sparring with knives, the false lead can set up certain techniques in a way that a more standard right lead with the right arm forward. For example, I might have a right lead with the hips turned so my left hand leads, as a bait to get my opponent to cut at it. As soon as they do, my left hand pulls away to avoid the attack, my left leg steps 90 degrees to the left and the hips swivel as the right hand stabs forward or inward into the fencing mask, making use of the opening your opponent creates by attacking you. This all happens in one move. The sidestep is nice so that if your attack isn't effective, you can triangle out of range of their counters in a nice fluid way. I have some knife sparring videos somewhere, but my crappy computer has trouble actually viewing videos on the Internet so I'd have to check them out on another computer to see if it has what I'm talking about (but if you're just looking for unarmed videos I won't subject you to dorks in fencing masks in a park).

    Attacking a grounded opponent: Interestingly enough, the latest Dog Brother video addresses kali-silat vs the guard. Silat incorporates a lot of knee drops to downed opponents in it's techniques. When fighting an opponent who's on the ground trying to sweep or kick, I've found dropping a knee onto the ribcage before weighing down on them can be very effective, so much so that when I do this, I strike down very lightly, maybe 20 percent power. I've also been in a position to attack the head by holding it down and slowly dropping knees, these definitely have potential to cause very real damage, like in a couple of felony fights videos (likely NSFW):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZgli_82-Cg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynqdJ...eature=related

    Changing levels: changing height is an important component of silat that seems more important in silat than other styles, both with and without weapons. For example, when someone tries to grab my leg for a takedown, I try to underhook one arm and rotate their body for my own takedown (this doesn't work too well if the opponent is good at keeping really upright when attacking the legs). The counter takedown works much better when you drop lower as you turn them over, and makes it harder to spin out of it. Silat leg drills have helped me see how a number of techniques become more effective by shifting vertically smoothly.
  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2009 1:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Okay.
    He's a bit above average, and I guess technically it's Bali, and not Jakarta. But otherwise, pretty good.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg...x=0&playnext=1

    Anyways, I would presume you have a story about a Silat guy doing the same? I'd love to hear it.
    "He's a bit above average"??? & that was a bullshit fight, we have no info on the other guy just that he picked a fight with a big Yankee MMA fighter & got his ass kicked. That's it.

    & yeah, I've heard plenty of stories, who give a ****? Uriah Faber got some brass knuckles upside his head & survived? Rudy Terlinden had fuckin' bayonet wounds! Now that's gnarly. But **** it, it's just a story. & there's no video so it didn't happen, right??? :eusa_droo

    Did you just referred to Bruce Lee as "VERY QUALIFIED"? In all caps and everything? Seriously?
    If Bruce Lee was alive today he would STILL go through your ass like a wet paper bag every day of the week. Bruce Lee trained all over the fucking place, cross training WITH GRAPPLERS TOO! He spent at least some time with guys like Wally Jay and Gene Lebell. It's fucking documented. He did everything from Wing Chun to Western Boxing to Euro Fencing, & if he was alive today, he'd be doing BJJ too, just to round out his game.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  9. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2009 2:36am

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Looks like we're halfway to declaring Silat to be a case of "yeah, there's good schools here and there, but mostly it sucks." Which, BTW, is how I regard my own style of karate.
    Yep, that's the consensus.

    Plus, Jim Jude, be careful before you cast yourself as a Victor Parlatti here. "OMG a video would be soooooo hard."
    I'm not familiar with the reference (maybe I don't spend enough time on the Internet?)
    I'm pretty sure that wasn't my point at all. My point, while you're asking, was that it would be unreasonable for me to go through all the hassle to fulfill TMM's desire to see me prove whether or not I can make my Silat work in the ring, just to make him happy. That was my point.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2009 3:09am

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I found this, which is "Combat Silat / Kali" knife sparring with headgear. To my untrained eye, it looks fairly good. Thoughts?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djlihBiq90Y

    As for "well it's a knife art and not a sporty sporting bullshit sport-type ring-only sport that people only do for sport...not the STREETS OF JAKARTA"...what would be acceptable criteria for evidence of worth, Jim? I can think of half a dozen quick videos that would make me say "Hey, yeah, it's a martial art that's oriented towards matched and unmatched weapon and unarmed combat, and it can be done well."

    Here's my half dozen, just off the top of my head...
    I don't really get your point, but most of that stuff sounds like good times. You'd probably learn something if you applied a few of those.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

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