Working my way back to health
Posted On:1/11/2004 12:07pm
Style: Injury magnet
Does anyone take action when a person is claiming SEAL experience they don't have?
What steps are taken?
Can others help?
Posted On:1/11/2004 12:17pm
in the uk the SAS in based in a small town called hereford- a lot of the sas uys live there after their service: so if someone claims to be sas, you can just go to hereford and ask around about them. The comparative size of the us probably means there is no equivalent which is a shame
Posted On:1/11/2004 12:18pm
Also what about Martial Artist claims of training SEALs.
Is there any way that can be verified?
Is there any penalty for these claims that are false?
Edit: can't spell
Last edited by poet; 1/11/2004 12:26pm at .
Posted On:1/11/2004 12:23pm
The POW Network Style: none
It's is most unfortunate that making false claims of being a SEAL (or any other bogus military claims) are, in and of themselves, NOT illegal. It IS illegal, however, to falsify (forge) or alter a government document... such as a DD-214 (Report of Separation from Active Duty) so that it apparently offers 'proof' of the bogus military claims.
In the cases where someone who has been using false SEAL claims to 'impress' others, fluff up his resume, etc... but who hasn't actually forged any government documentation, an effort is made to gather sufficient proof that the false claims have been made to support posting the man's name on the AuthentiSEAL website WALL OF SHAME. That proof is defined as "capable of withstanding proof in a court of law", and ialso ncludes the requirement for a number of reports about someone's activities, not just a single report. This eliminates efforts by disgruntled girlfriends, ex-wives, or pissed off 'buddies' to undertake character assassination by reporting some innocent guy as having made false SEAL claims.
The men whose bogus claims DO include falsified/altered government documents are referred to the Defence Criminal Investigation Service (DCIS) office that handles 'forged documents'. Then the government goes about its work... and the AuthentiSEALs are out of the picture. However, with copies of altered documents acting as 'proof', the guy's name is added to the WALL OF SHAME.
For each of the names on the WALL OF SHAME there are hundreds and hundreds who never get posted there, primarily because the person(s) reporting the poser have requested anonymity. When that happens the reporter gets a reply... the man reported was either a SEAL or he wasn't... that's it... no further action.
Hope that clarifies it a bit. Sorry it's a long post, but there's just no way to say it in one or two sentences. Besides, I'm a WRITER for GAWDZ sake!
Steve Robinson RM2(SEAL)
SEAL Team ONE
Inshore Undersea Warfare Group ONE
-UDT-SEAL Association - Member
-POW Network Board of Directors
-Naval Special Warfare Archives - SOF Analyst/Contributing Journalist
-Disabled American Veterans - Life Member
-FORMER Special Investigator - SEAL Authentication Team
-CyberSEALs.org - Webmaster
-Author - NO GUTS, NO GLORY - Unmasking Navy SEAL Imposters
Posted On:1/11/2004 12:33pm
support posting the man's name on the AuthentiSEAL website WALL OF SHAME
Posted On:1/11/2004 12:36pm
AuthentiSEAL web site:
If you want to jump straight to the report form:
Posted On:1/11/2004 3:16pm
If Clang was just joking DRD then my apologies for over-reacting, but I took his post at face value. Obviously not all lies are equal but claiming special forces status and falsifying a large portion of ones life history to look like a hero is particularly unethical. Under the "I used to work for the CIA catagory" (though not a seal) I'd like to ask Steve if he has followed the case of Frank Dux.
Update, I had a polite conversation with Clang this afternoon by phone, and will first say that my comments about his honor were premature. His point is that some 18 year old navy kids had made this false claim in bars and had been beaten up by Seals which he thought was over-reaction. I agreed that I didn't want to see someone of this age get beaten up as verses chewed out. However the vast majority of these people Steve exposed were not kids who made a wrong choice, they were in their upper twenties and older and had been riding the lie for a while. Clang and I agreed that anyone who used this lie to make money or get a federal job was a scum sucker.
Where we do appear to have a remaining difference is on the issue of Bar ethics. Clang I believe was saying that I'm military and don't take it personally when some idiot at a bar tries to use such a line to impress a woman. While I agree that dating is not an area that one expects total honesty, or even much honesty, that there is a line at which making up significant life achievements and history should be unexceptable. For example claiming that you are a Seal, or say claiming that you are a Doctor, ect. In otherwords at some point a lie goes from minor to serious, and is clearly wrong.
Last edited by Sam Browning; 1/11/2004 4:11pm at .
Posted On:1/11/2004 3:45pm
Style: Whatever Works
Thanks for the info Steve. Anyway, somewhat off topic but perhaps you have some information. As you may already know, Jerry Peterson the founder of the SCARS system put in his advertisements that he ran SEALS into the ground while he effortlessly performed despite not being in good physical conditioning, and in the water was able to "drown" SEAL after SEAL. How was this accepted by the SEAL community? Also, are you aware of why they phased out SCARS and replaced it with Duane Dieter's system? What I mean by that is, beyond any political or financial reasons, did you ever get any first hand opinions from SEALS who experienced both?
Don't get me wrong, I have no real attachment to these issues beyond a burning curiosity. BTW, Lieutenant Dick Shea allows John Perkins to use his endorsement that KCD is the most devastating and efficient fighting system hes ever experienced and I COMPLETELY agree. I only mention that because it says that you were of SEAL Team One and if things are completely "righteous" the name should definitely ring a bell.:)
Last edited by Perfection; 1/11/2004 3:49pm at .
Posted On:1/11/2004 5:05pm
I have tracked the Frank Dux controversy over the last couple of years, but only in a peripheral manner as he had not made any false SEAL claims (to the best of my knowledge). His conduct is typical of underachievers in just about every society. If they'd just apply themselves and not worry about what others are thinking, they'd actually earn the aclaim they attempt to garner for themselves by nefarious means.
I am totally unfamiliar with both SCARS and the Dieter system, and cannot make any statements of value regarding either point of view. My time with the SEAL Team was before any one specific fighting style was designated for training or use. We were very widely trained in fighting moves from numerous MA 'genres', along with a lot (A LOT) of training in good ol' backalley style, dirty/nasty fighting - no rules, last man standing wins, dead guys lose. We learned the standard Karate snap kicks, side kicks, and short-distance punches... and a LOT about nerve centers and particularly sensitive target areas. Which bones break easiest, which joints are the most sensitive to dislocation or breakage, what hurts the most (to get your opponent's attention away from hurting you), and what were the deadliest blows you could land without hurting yourself.
Most of us also spent plenty of time on the Judo mats - lots of fun and we learned how to fall and roll without too much personal damage! Having done it on the mats, however, I still never learned to like it on concrete or pavement. Jungle tangle was soft for landings, but you can get really tangled in undergrowth if you're not careful. I used to spar with Jim "Jesse Ventura" Janos when he was working on his leg sweeps... and I spent a HUGE amount of time on my back with the wind knocked out of me, trying desperately to start breathing again, and looking UP at that behemoth! He was particularly fond of body-slams and didn't always let go of my 'mat slapping arm' when he threw me onto the mat. He and his older brother Jan (also a former SEAL) are still good friends of mine.
We trained in a variety of arm blocks and counter punch combinations, and lots of moves for taking someone from behind (with and WITHOUT a knife). Emphasis was on speed and SILENCE... nothing fancy - grab 'im from behind, muffle his breathing, tuck his head in tight to your shoulder, kick his knees out from under him, drop to the ground with 'im and roll forward, breaking his neck (and his spinal cord) so he won't flop around while he's dying. Wait no more than about 10 seconds to make sure it's all over... then get up and move on to your next target or objective.
Understand that the training we were getting was for life-and-death combat, not for mat work or tournament work. There were no pulled punches and no rules. Sand in the eyes was a valid part of the 'form', as was a good strong bite if needed. When we practiced in the SEAL compound we'd set up a practice area on the beach and one man would fight off increasingly larger numbers of opponents. When we got so we could handle 4 or 5 attackers at once we got to sit down and let someone else work out... while we sat to one side and tried to bleed quietly. Don't get me wrong, the SEAL training was very controlled and overseen, and instructors were always Johnny-on-the-spot to correct 'form' or advise students... but elbows still managed to hit noses and eyes still got blackened with regularity.
SEALs win their hand-to-hand encounters because they treat every such encounter as a life or death situation for themselves and their Teammates... whether it's in a bar or in the jungle... and they STILL train that way. With the advent of specific MA styles or regimens, I can only imagine that the guys coming out of HTH training these days are far more deadly than any of us back in the Vietnam era.
I will say that one of the deadliest and most highly trained MA men I ever knew was a guy named Stan Neal, an African American frogman who had top belts in half a dozen different MA styles. He was my judo instructor, and had taken a leave of absence from the military in order to study in an oriental dojo. He had scars all over the tops of his feet from kneeling on rough bamboo and rice mats and dragging his feet under him when he rose to stand. He was a legend among the guys in the Teams back then, and he's still a very highly respected veteran at the annual SEAL reunions... even with the newer guys.
As for LT Dick Shea... he was an East Coast SEAL (although he may have ultimately ended up on the West Coast at some point, and I don't ever recall meeting him in person. I know his name, of course, but not much more. When I was on active duty there were only two SEAL Teams, a total force of only about 380 SEALs and a little over 700 UDT Frogmen, with half of them being on the East Coast. SEAL Team ONE was/is on the West Coast, and my interactions were with men there. At that point in time there were two training units - one on each coast - and for the most part the men stayed and served on the Teams on whichever coast where they'd trained.
Hope this answers some of your questions. Keep 'em coming and I'll keep answering. Again, I'm not one who uses 10 words to answer a post when 27 will do just as nicely... I AM a writer (LOL)!
Posted On:1/11/2004 6:52pm
Style: Mauy Thai
Well Ninja's are better! You SEAL pansy!
Don't hurt me...
"ARGH SURF NINJAS *implodes* " the cruel fate of Stold3
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