Neutral, or nearly so
Posted On:1/15/2004 10:06am
Where is Kungfools in all of this with his SCARS uber-combat and seal training, not to mention his ever silly automatic rifle disarms (like that is something most of us would ever feel a need to train for)?
Thanks for all the time and effort you are putting into our questions.
Out of curiostiy do you feel that the media/entertainers do a fair job of portraying SEAL training? GI Jane being perhaps the most recent portrayal of such, several more action based movies around the same time portrayed much the same thing. Obviously nothing is going to be able to accurately portray mental fatigue and the like, so let's go primarily with the physical portions.
ˇViva los Muertos!
Posted On:1/15/2004 5:47pm
Law Enforcement personnel are the number one "victims" (?) of Munchaussen's Syndrome, so it doesn't surprise me that there are plenty of liars that claim Seal training there. I've heard the "I was a seal" thing from lot's of people too. I kid you not, an Airman 1st class tried to tell me this same line.
I can't blame these guys for being a bit indignant about this phenomena, after all they put themselves through just to come home and run into some lazy slob whose never even worn the uniform, or some scrawny guy who was a private for 2 1/2 years before a dubious discharge promoted him to Civilian 3rd class.
I probably wouldn't read the book though. It would just remind me of every lame-o bullshit story i ever heard, THEN I'D get righteously indignant (as i have a tendency to do). Next thing you know, I'd be scaring total strangers with 30 minute rants about pretentious poseurs.
Last edited by Sun Wukong; 1/15/2004 5:51pm at .
A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
Rolls With Sweaty Men!
Posted On:1/15/2004 6:41pm
If only Kungfools would rear his head about now. It would be perfect. But trolls never seem to show up in situations like this...
Posted On:1/15/2004 7:02pm
The POW Network Style: none
While the super-commando-Navy-SEAL-kill-everyone-spare-none action movies are 'entertaining', they bear very little resemblance to reality, with regard to either physical training, mental demands, or the combat tasking of US Navy SEALs.
GI Jane was a HUGE waste of the viewers' time, and the 'training' depicted is nothing more than repetitive exercises in sadism and brutality on the part of the instructors... nothing being shown has any apparent purpose or reason other than humiliation and physical brutality. THAT'S NOT SEAL TRAINING! And nothing they do in the "combat" sequences bears any resemblance to real taskings given to SEALs either.
The Charlie Sheen movie was a total joke! Anyone with his attitude would have been bounced out of training within the first week or so... and never would have made it to the Teams. A Teammate of mine tells of his thirteen man class lining up for graduation at the end of the six month course, and of one man pulling a hard-ass, chest-puffed-up attitude that he'd "finally made it". It got a little over the top, he was pulled from the line 30 minutes before the ceremony, and only TWELVE men graduated. He was promptly shipped back to the fleet and never had another chance at making the Teams. Attitude definitely counts!
The Steven Segal stuff is ludicrous. Not only does he generally kill every living thing without suffering so much as a nasty boo boo... but when he DOES get a boo boo, it's enough to kill an ordinary human (but he STILL manages to pull through by sheer will power). Somehow he ALWAYS wins the girl while soundly defeating the entire cadre of bad guys and definitively whomping the leader of the bad guys (who generally uses the same MA style as Segal). The realy-oh truly-oh reason he is able to do this is... IT'S IN THE DAMNED SCRIPT and SEGAL HAD FINAL SCRIPT APPROVAL! The man's ego is HUGE! He may be skilled in MA, but he is NOT a SEAL and never could be. There are mental disciplines involved that his ego could never get past!
In his UNDER SIEGE movie, he is supposed a man KICKED OUT OF THE SEAL TEAMS (i.e. he's had his SEAL status revoked)... yet at the end of the movie we see him standing tall in his dress whites, standing honor guard over his buddy, the dead Admiral... and wearing a SEAL Trident pin. In real life, that's agin military law and he'd be hung out to dry. SEAL status being revoked means NO MORE TRIDENT... EVER!! But like I said... it's in the script! (makes most SEALs wanna puke!)
Then there's Bruce Willis' TEARS OF THE SUN. It's probably the best representation of the actual skills of true SEALs, but Willis is obviously 20+ years too old to be a Navy Lieutenant with such a job assignment. Also, no SEAL platoon is going to go ROGUE against orders the way it is depicted in the movie. It HAS NEVER HAPPENED and it will NEVER HAPPEN! You can play the sob stories and the harps strings all day long... the job is the job and it gets done... orders are followed... and no ROGUE or PIRATE actions are included!!!
Willis' movie shows a pretty good array of weaponry and patrolling capabilities/skills, and some reasonable HTH depictions, but the guys in the film are too bunched up in all the various shots... however, we know that's so the camera can get more than one guy on the screen at the same time. I can assure you that if it WERE real, you'd have a tough time finding even ONE guy in the picture without analyzing shadows. Even when SEALs move fast, they still take the time to spread out, cammo up, and stay as invisible as possible.
All in all, the movies have NEVER even come close to accurately representing either the training or the tasking of Navy SEALs. Yet, when we (SEALs) watch these movies, we hoot and holler along with the rest of the audience, then swagger and tell everyone that "Yep... that's the way it's done... we do THAT all the time!", and shovel so much BS into the laps of the civilians that there's no way they'll EVER be able to separate truth from fiction. Then we swagger out the door, go drink ourselves silly, and laugh all the way back to the base about the assinine, ridiculous crap that appeared in the movie. BUT... the civilian women are generally impressed... which is the point of the whole exercise in the first place!!!
Chris... if by using the term 'righteous indignation' you mean it as a polite way of saying "really pissed off", you got it absolutely right! Oh... and don't give up on getting a copy of my book. You'll get a lot of good reference material regarding the history of the Teams, some ideas about what makes the posers 'tick', and a few tremendous belly laughs at the antics some of them pull off. Think about it (you're getting sleeeeepppy) I'm sure the idea (slleeeeeeepppy) will begin to grow on you (buuuuyyyy theeeee booooookk), and you'll finally see the logic (bbbbuuuuuuyyyyy) of it in the end.
Steve Robinson RM2(SEAL)
SEAL Team ONE
Inshore Undersea Warfare Group ONE
-UDT-SEAL Association - Member
-POW Network Board of Directors
-Naval Special Warfare Archives - SOF Analyst/Contributing Journalist
-Disabled American Veterans - Life Member
-FORMER Special Investigator - SEAL Authentication Team
-CyberSEALs.org - Webmaster
-Author - NO GUTS, NO GLORY - Unmasking Navy SEAL Imposters
Posted On:1/15/2004 7:10pm
Style: Kempo-Goju Karate, BJJ
sir, im a police officer in milwaukee, and noted with great intrest that some of the posers you mentioned were police officers, would'nt that be reavealed in a background check the agency has prior to hiring people?
16 years till retirement.
Posted On:1/15/2004 7:23pm
Thank you for the information, I of course know that pretty much any aspect of a "realistic" movie is in fact quite the opposite, and tried to couch my question in a manner to make that apparent.
So, to be more specific much of what is seen in movies of the general (not specific) training of the buds program (I think that is what it is called in the movies and was referred to as such by you) entail rigorous swimming and endurance training, the races up and to the surf with boats, running obstacle courses while being fired upon (presumably with blanks) and similar exercises. Are those depictions at least fairly accurate?
Posted On:1/15/2004 7:39pm
In my book I document one case of a Sergeant who is a SWAT instructor and who had falsely claimed to be a SEAL for YEARS... and he was only exposed when one of his men contacted the AuthentiSEALs. Many of these men are able to get past a background check by supplying false documentation in the form of an altered/forged DD-214 (Report of Separation).
There are currently two Deputy Sheriffsin the county directly to my north - in Christian County, Missouri - who are falsely claiming to be SEALs. One man has been using his false SEAL claims for YEARS in promoting his private SWAT/police training business. He was recently investigated by the ATF, who very pointedly told him to immediately cease and desist all such claims or "there would be serious consequences". He's publicly claiming he never said he was a SEAL, but privately he's still making the claims, and telling everyone that the 'investigation' was because he'd broken a code of silence and the Navy was pissed about him 'revealing that he was a SEAL'. His big claim (absolutely false) was that he had the most hand kills of any SEAL in 'Nam. He regularly tells his students that he was "slitting throats in 'Nam when you were all in diapers". According to his birth certificate he was about 13 years old when the Paris Peace Accords were signed in Jan 1973!
Until the creation of the comprehensive database of US Navy SEALs (and the members of the predecessor units) there simply was no way to verify or deny such claims. The Navy had actually destroyed early physical records to make room for newer ones... in the days before microfische and/or computer archiving.
So... YES... there ARE police officers who make false SEAL claims... and typically they claim that their work was so top secret, so incredibly classified, that there are no records of them being a SEAL... to "protect National Security". The movies have so polluted the minds of civilians with the idea that such stuff takes place, that they don't even question their statements.
Posted On:1/15/2004 7:51pm
Sorry to burst your bubble, man... but no one gets shot at (live or blank rounds) while running the obstacle course. But the stuff you refer to, the kind of thing that is depicted in the Discovery Channel show about CLASS 234, is accurate (as far as it goes). Truthfully, there is so much more that is NOT shown, that it might as well be Marine Corps training. The stuff you see just isn't that much different from any other tough military training on a beach.
It's really difficult to even summarize the year long training regimen (BUD/S, SQT, and Platoon training) in the space of a couple of inches of Discussion Board posting space. Contact me by email (email@example.com) and I'll see if I can fill in some of the blanks in your knowledge.
Stand and Deliver!
Posted On:1/15/2004 8:46pm
Style: JKD Concepts, Kyokushin
What did you think of the way the SEAL team was depicted in The Rock? Was that fairly accurate or was that bogus as well?
"Onward we stagger, and if the tanks come, may God help the tanks." - Col. William O. Darby
Posted On:1/15/2004 10:59pm
That pretty much covered, I think outside of the video game forums everyone realizes that action movies over do everything, I was mainly wondering how much so.
Thanks a lot.
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