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  1. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,766

    Posted On:
    3/25/2009 8:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Martial arts flame wars in 1901

    In October, 1901 there occurred a public feud between French savate teacher Charles Charlemont and Bartitsu Club savate and stick fighting instructor Pierre Vigny, via the pages of some of the British physical culture journals.

    The gist of it was that Charlemont objected to Vigny being promoted as the "champion in French boxing and single-stick" and said that Vigny had lost to Charlemont himself, M. Mainguet (an assistant at Charlemont's school) and "other boxers in Paris." Charlemont closed by suggesting that Vigny was a "bluffer" who was trying to make a name for himself as a self defense teacher in London.

    E.W. Barton-Wright, who was Pierre Vigny's employer at the time, replied that Vigny saw Charlemont as being a "fantastic dancer only, without the slightest right to the title he has assumed" and offered to financially back Vigny in two contests with Charlemont, the first being straight French boxing and the second in which Charlemont could kick and punch, but Vigny would restrict himself to boxing. Barton-Wright further noted that if Charlemont did not accept the challenge, he (B-W) would "allow Vigny to go to Paris and publicly horse-whip him", before closing with a few choice remarks
    about the infamous Joseph Charlemont/ Jack Driscoll boxing-savate contest (a very controversial win to J. Charlemont, who was Charles Charlemont's father).

    In a follow-up letter to the editor in December, B-W reported that Charlemont
    had by then refused the challenge because "he says he is not a pugilist, but a
    Professor of Savate". B-W also noted that it had actually been Pierre Vigny's
    brother who had lost the bouts referred to in Charlemont's original letter, and
    closed with some very disparaging remarks about Charlemont's character. This was a little disingenuous of Barton-Wright; Charlemont was an amateur in an age when there were very clear lines between amateur and professional athletes, and he could not have risked his amateur status by agreeing to a professional prize-fight as proposed by Barton-Wright.

    Anyway, the newspaper record does reveal that a fighter named Vigny from Geneva lost several matches to Charlemont and others between about 1897-99, but the reports do not specify whether it was Pierre Vigny or his brother who competed in these matches.
  2. CoffeeFan is offline
    CoffeeFan's Avatar

    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sherwood, OR
    Posts
    2,180

    Posted On:
    3/25/2009 11:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah good old fashion trolling/flame war. Good find
  3. 265lbsfist is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    211

    Posted On:
    3/26/2009 6:41am


     Style: BJJ/MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man, to restrict one's flaming to weekly or monthly periodicals must be hella hard on the patience.
    Wonder if the ban hammer was in employ back then? :)
  4. NJM is offline
    NJM's Avatar

    Putting the "ow" back in "flowery technique"

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    Jul 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,682

    Posted On:
    3/26/2009 12:16pm


     Style: CMA, MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "You braggarts have employed my periodical as a medium for your contemptuous rivalries in the final issue, I say! The final issue! I shall strike any further attempts from the both of you with my figurative prohibitory mallet!"
  5. 1point2 is offline
    1point2's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,103

    Posted On:
    3/26/2009 5:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You just gave me a thread idea for Motobu & Funakoshi. Nice writeup.

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