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  1. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/18/2009 10:26am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An exercise that helped me and might help you reach your goals is part of the warm-ups done in Chirioku karate. After straight high leg swings, ten each side (I seem to be the only person in the entire ma world that calls them can-cans) - the same warm-ups that are in lots of styles, they add a turning move. As with the frontal leg moves, the leg isn't kept rigid straight, but allowed to relax and be near straight.

    It's done both sides. First, with the left ahead in a shoulder width stance pivot to your right, keeping the feet on the ground. If you started at 12 o'clock now you should be facing 5. Swing the right leg back. Keep the body bent at the small of the back. The most common mistake is to arch the back, which is shitty posture for back kicks. To emphasize the posture I often try to look under my right shoulder at the right foot as it rises. The foot returns to the ground, remaining in 5 o'clock position, then pivot back to 12 o'clock. Once that feels OK, then do the move the slightly more advanced way. Start the move with the left foot moving to the right, across the line of the right foot enough that when you pivot you are in stance facing 6 o'clock, then as the right foot returns (and you're still facing 6 o'clock) move it to the left so that when you pivot you are lined up to 12 o'clock again. They repeat ten times each side, every work out as part of their warm ups. This is a type of dynamic stretching (I avoid static in general) and for me, it helped learn to balance and keep good form. It does involve a little shuffling as to avoid moving sideways across the floor.

    I count my kicks on the bag to avoid "cheating" and shorting the awkward side. Everyone had a better side, that's what you are working against, so to speak. I do spinning hooks and wheels as part of my warm-ups, also. They are good full body moves. I was taught to throw a left hook to start the upper body in rotation for the right leg spin kicks and vice versa.

    Clear as hell? Well try it and ask questions if you wish.

    This is part of their warm-ups and after a couple months in their class I realized that my spinning back, spinning sides, wheels, and spinning hooks worked better and smoother. The advanced people do it fast and keep their balance well. At one time we were doing these on soft gymnastic mats and that increased the difficulty. Maybe do them in sand.

    Another exercise is to do a roundhouse (R) then follow with a spinning hook with the L, and this you can do continuous, and of course vice versa. What you are looking for is proper form so that the body is balanced and the kicks are focused.

    Combine the air moves with bag and pad, of course. Doing spinning heels or hooks on a moving big bag is a good workout.

    While these types of kicks are often low probability techniques, they have been used in the UFC (David Loiseau wiped out Charles McCarthy with a spinning back kick to the liver/solar plexus in their 2005 UFC fight) and there's a famous video of Andy Hug in K1 ending a match with a powerful spinning heel that smacks his opponents thigh like a sledge hammer, the poor fucker just drops in shock.

    *edit* One common problem is "blind" kicking. It is usually good practice to watch you kicking foot. And don't try to look over your shoulder or the back will be arched, to say nothing of the awkward neck twist.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 3/18/2009 10:36am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  2. Slydermv is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/18/2009 10:52am


     Style: WTF TKD, BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a lefty that stands orthodox. I started training in TKD for a number of years, then dabbled in MMA and BJJ, and now I'm kickboxing. I haven't fought, but I've put hard rounds in the gym, with guys who fight. I also help out at the gym with newer kick boxers who what to learn the SBK or spinning hook because of my background. Just a little background on whether or not you wanna take my advice.

    Since I'm a lefty and fight orthodox, my back leg for those flashy kicks, (spinning back and hook) is my weak leg unless I step forward, so I have to use it. If you don't have anyone that can help, get a video camera, and tape yourself doing the kicks you wanna learn against a heavy bag, and compare it to the training video's you got. Try to emulate what you see and pay attention in particular to a couple of things.

    Watch where your feet are in relation to the target. Make sure you spin on the ball of your foot, not the heel. For an SBK, make sure your knee is in tight, the kicking leg knee brushing against your base leg knee when the kick comes out. It's hard to see alot of these things yourself. A spinning hook... it's a bit harder to self diagnose... I'd have to see videos.

    For basic set ups in sparring. Throw a jab to check range then follow with the SBK, spin hook. Also, they can land if your disrtance is good, and your opponent is circling away from your power hand. Generally, you're not gonna throw these kicks with your lead leg unless you step forward.

    Finally, when you practice... if you do 10 kicks with your good leg, do 20 with your bad...
  3. elbowtko is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/18/2009 6:53pm


     Style: Muay Thai, No Gi Judo/Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you living in Thailand temporarily? If so I would continue spending your time learning Muay Thai there from the best... you can pick up those TKD kicks for shits and giggles anywhere else in the world as it is pretty popular everywhere.
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/18/2009 8:32pm

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elbowtko View Post
    Are you living in Thailand temporarily? If so I would continue spending your time learning Muay Thai there from the best... you can pick up those TKD kicks for shits and giggles anywhere else in the world as it is pretty popular everywhere.
    No, good schools and good instructors are very rare regarding high level techniques. Even good Kyokushin instructors often seem to drill the basics (bread and butter techniques after all are the bread and butter techniques) and what kickboxing instruction I've received pretty much ignored everything except front and roundhouse.

    My kicks rule and I picked up techniques mostly from one Kajukenbo instructor who understood the application of kicks. One memorable night he chased a redneck (who foolishly thought that Sifu was a hippie; Sifu was an armed services veteran and a redneck and an acid head so he was a kinda shaggy redneck, maybe his longish hair hid his neck) across the Cactus Club Bar with successive face high wheel kicks. Redneck ended up climbing over people in a booth trying to get away.

    One night in the Kyokushin dojo where the Kaju Sifu was guesting I snapped a roundhouse and my right big toe nail sliced the side of his nose. He taught me that level of control by having us train strikes against paper, wood, and the sides and corners of brick buildings.

    Kyokushin did teach the proper angle for side kick - the hip movement that makes it look kinda like a side, that makes it strong and prevents injuries to the hip joint and knee (and is almost impossible to block as the opponent can't tell if the kick is for the knee, gut, or face). But it was the Kaju that took me to another level. Then years later the Chirioku teacher had spinning hooks down beautifully; they just tear you apart or knock you on your ass and I picked up better the shut-the-door on the dump truck kicks.

    So good techniques aren't taught all that much in my experience.
    Average teachers are everywhere. Breaking boards head high with spinning wheels is a TKD trick, but seriously, if you walk into the average TKD dojang I'd wager that very few could pull it off. Most schools are run by average black belts (like me). Rarely do I get to train with expert level, real Shihan level instructors.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. elbowtko is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/18/2009 11:07pm


     Style: Muay Thai, No Gi Judo/Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fug View Post
    No, good schools and good instructors are very rare regarding high level techniques. Even good Kyokushin instructors often seem to drill the basics (bread and butter techniques after all are the bread and butter techniques) and what kickboxing instruction I've received pretty much ignored everything except front and roundhouse.

    My kicks rule and I picked up techniques mostly from one Kajukenbo instructor who understood the application of kicks. One memorable night he chased a redneck (who foolishly thought that Sifu was a hippie; Sifu was an armed services veteran and a redneck and an acid head so he was a kinda shaggy redneck, maybe his longish hair hid his neck) across the Cactus Club Bar with successive face high wheel kicks. Redneck ended up climbing over people in a booth trying to get away.

    One night in the Kyokushin dojo where the Kaju Sifu was guesting I snapped a roundhouse and my right big toe nail sliced the side of his nose. He taught me that level of control by having us train strikes against paper, wood, and the sides and corners of brick buildings.

    Kyokushin did teach the proper angle for side kick - the hip movement that makes it look kinda like a side, that makes it strong and prevents injuries to the hip joint and knee (and is almost impossible to block as the opponent can't tell if the kick is for the knee, gut, or face). But it was the Kaju that took me to another level. Then years later the Chirioku teacher had spinning hooks down beautifully; they just tear you apart or knock you on your ass and I picked up better the shut-the-door on the dump truck kicks.

    So good techniques aren't taught all that much in my experience.
    Average teachers are everywhere. Breaking boards head high with spinning wheels is a TKD trick, but seriously, if you walk into the average TKD dojang I'd wager that very few could pull it off. Most schools are run by average black belts (like me). Rarely do I get to train with expert level, real Shihan level instructors.
    Yeah, but the same can still be said of Muay Thai its not great everywhere... if there is one place to pick it up though it would be THAILAND. Don't know if I would look for great masters of TKD there, besides not too sure if that is really what he is looking for.
    Last edited by elbowtko; 3/18/2009 11:09pm at .
  6. Last_Samurai is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 12:02am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by codo3500 View Post
    Those kicks suck, stick with Muay Thai or you'll end up a worse fighter than you already are.
    LOL. I won't bother to post thousands of YouTube vids of K-1 and Muay Thai back spinning kick KO's... you're just a dick.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Are you Orthodox or Southpaw?
    I am right handed, but left leg dominant, so I fight southpaw in favor of kicking. I also enjoy the powerful jabs and right hooks and cuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    You are in Thailand and you are trying to study TKD? Get on your knees and choke yourself, not with your hand idiot use my hand!

    Seriously, look up some of the TKD vs MT videos and then see if you still want to learn "advanced kicks".
    ... Why do I have to resort to the basicness of YouTubre on a forum like this?

    YouTube - Serkan Yilmaz Turkish Samurai K1 Fighter

    Is there anything laughable about this guys style?

    Anyway, I am CROSSING the two styles. A kind of my own version of stand up MMA. Muay Thai stance and theory with a few added kicks and strikes. It works.

    Quote Originally Posted by octaviousbp View Post
    TKD is pretty huge in Thailand. I would be shocked if there wasn't a gym in Phuket.
    Yeah, there might be a few "clubs" around. I knew a good one in Bangkok, the teacher did stunts in Tony Jaa movies. But I moved, so...

    But I want to be practicing and fighting with guys training for tournaments. Last thing I want to be a 186 cm, 103 kilo guy sparring with ... you get the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    Everyone has a 'special side.' Learn to use both.

    The main reason is that traditional TKD kicks that have you land in a switched stance (meaning your leg that is regularly in the back is now in front) will force you to follow-up with your 'other' leg.

    Think of it like this (you have your left leg forward):

    - you throw a lead-leg (sliding) roundhouse kick with your left leg and your left leg lands in front, then you follow-up with a back-kick with your right leg. So your follow-up is with your right leg.

    now you reset and have your left leg forward again.

    - you throw a rear-leg round-house kick with your right leg, your right leg lands in front, and you follow-up with a left leg back-kick. So your follow-up is now with your left leg.

    If you limit yourself to only know a back-kick or wheel kick with one leg, then you can only effectively follow-up when your 'good leg' is back which limits your options.

    It may feel completely awkward at first, but your 'special side' will come around if you keep training it.
    Well that is kind of new to me. So it is common in TKD to fight both southpaw and orthodox regardless of preferance?

    In Muay Thai, they teach you to always finish your moves in the same stance as you started in.

    Of course, I can do back kicks of all kinds and land in the same stance as I started in when I do it without lunging forward, but it does happen I think if you're doing a lot of thrusting, kind of.

    Quote Originally Posted by fug View Post
    While these types of kicks are often low probability techniques, they have been used in the UFC (David Loiseau wiped out Charles McCarthy with a spinning back kick to the liver/solar plexus in their 2005 UFC fight) and there's a famous video of Andy Hug in K1 ending a match with a powerful spinning heel that smacks his opponents thigh like a sledge hammer, the poor fucker just drops in shock.

    *edit* One common problem is "blind" kicking. It is usually good practice to watch you kicking foot. And don't try to look over your shoulder or the back will be arched, to say nothing of the awkward neck twist.
    Yes, I have many exercises like that. Thanx. I do them every morning in my stretching.

    I am not into UFC, i don't know if these work in MMA. I saw Liddel fiddle with some weird invented back kick of his once, but it is not the same as TKD or anything.

    I don't kick blind, I always see the target over my shoulder well before the foot lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydermv View Post
    For an SBK, make sure your knee is in tight, the kicking leg knee brushing against your base leg knee when the kick comes out. It's hard to see alot of these things yourself. A spinning hook... it's a bit harder to self diagnose... I'd have to see videos.
    You call the kicks different than I do. It is the "turning back kick" (for me what I call it) where the leg brushes tight to the knee. Yes. The back spinning kick (these are TKD terms) is just a big dizzy wizzy... I can't drill more than ten of them without having to stop...

    Quote Originally Posted by elbowtko View Post
    Are you living in Thailand temporarily? If so I would continue spending your time learning Muay Thai there from the best... you can pick up those TKD kicks for shits and giggles anywhere else in the world as it is pretty popular everywhere.
    Well, it isn't just games for me... I live in Thailand permanent, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by fug View Post
    So good techniques aren't taught all that much in my experience.
    Average teachers are everywhere. Breaking boards head high with spinning wheels is a TKD trick, but seriously, if you walk into the average TKD dojang I'd wager that very few could pull it off. Most schools are run by average black belts (like me). Rarely do I get to train with expert level, real Shihan level instructors.
    I figured that, too. That is why I think the DVD I got is good, because it gives perfect professional instruction.

    _______________________

    Thanks fior replies. I figure I will spend some time on my right leg then. Also, after watching the YouTube vid above, i realize Silmaz is using both legs, so I should too.

    Thanks.
  7. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 12:42am

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      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Last_Samurai View Post
    Well that is kind of new to me. So it is common in TKD to fight both southpaw and orthodox regardless of preferance?
    Well, you'll fight in your preferred stance. Some rear-leg kicks result in your stance being switched when they are finished; a rear-leg roundhouse is one example in which your rear leg *can* land in front (which can help to close distance).

    A rear-leg roundhouse into a back kick or a wheel kick is common. I have seen those combos in full-contact karate vids (point sparring vids as well, but OP was interested in harder contact application). I can provide YouTube links if necessary.

    I will admit to using some TKD-style kicks when sparring now. They set up some things nicely as long as you set them up well to begin with. But if you try to throw something without a setup, be prepared to eat fist.
  8. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 6:00am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Last_Samurai View Post

    But I want to be practicing and fighting with guys training for tournaments. Last thing I want to be a 186 cm, 103 kilo guy sparring with ... you get the idea.
    At that weight you are going to find it really rough to pressure test your techniques in Thailand. Are you training at a gym with a lot of Westerners?

    Well that is kind of new to me. So it is common in TKD to fight both southpaw and orthodox regardless of preferance?

    In Muay Thai, they teach you to always finish your moves in the same stance as you started in.
    No they don't, how long have you trained Muay Thai for? It might be a little foolish to try and cross two styles before you even have a strong base in one.
  9. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2009 9:06am

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have many exercises like that. Thanx. I do them every morning in my stretching.
    Well, have you tried the one I, with great effort and lots of time spent, spelled out in minute descriptions?

    You call the kicks different than I do. It is the "turning back kick" (for me what I call it) where the leg brushes tight to the knee. Yes. The back spinning kick (these are TKD terms) is just a big dizzy wizzy... I can't drill more than ten of them without having to stop..
    You might try alternating the spin, first one way then the other to help reduce the dizzyness.

    And always do both sides, always.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 3/19/2009 9:09am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  10. Last_Samurai is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2009 12:44am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    A rear-leg roundhouse into a back kick or a wheel kick is common.
    Common in Muay Thai, I think. I don't know "wheel kick" or probably just not by that name.

    If you swing and miss with a Muay Thai round house, I've seen quite a few land back spinning kicks straight after whilst the opponent is trying to rush them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    At that weight you are going to find it really rough to pressure test your techniques in Thailand.
    I can't afford to go diving... never thought of doing MA underwater, but. Must be a rush!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    Are you training at a gym with a lot of Westerners?
    www.tigermuaythai.com

    My gym has a lot of big guys come through who have fought and do fights in Phuket. We've about 25 Thai trainers and some still doing fights. There are a couple of MMA teachers (Americans). The biggest Thai at the gym is Kru Robert, he is 75 kilo. The rest are about 50 - 65 kilo. So yeah, I appreciate some of the big tourists who stop by, some are quite skilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    No they don't, how long have you trained Muay Thai for? It might be a little foolish to try and cross two styles before you even have a strong base in one.
    I've been doing MA since I was 14. Started ****** style with Wing Chun and Ninjutsu, went into some BJJ too. I've been doing Muay Thai in Thailand for 18 months. Almost full time, but I admit I've been a bit lazy at times, yet I'm good enough to start trying pretty much anything I want.

    We are taught to get back to our preffered side as quick as you can. Keep in mind, there is no reason why a teacher cannot teach you to do whatever the **** he wants, so you may have been taught a different style of Muay Thai. I know I've been to a few gyms in Thailand, every gym tells you different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by fug View Post
    Well, have you tried the one I, with great effort and lots of time spent, spelled out in minute descriptions?
    I did read your whole post, but it is hard to understand something perfectly just from words. I think I know it. If you had a vid it would help.
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