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  1. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2011 3:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    One of my students bought the DVD's and I checked them out. There was nothing on there that I did not know already but the way they explain the techniques is real good. I don't see anyone having trouble learning from them.

    I am fortunate to have learned BJJ from an instructor who had learned BJJ from several different well known Jiu-Jitsu instructors including Carlson Gracie, Alvaro Barreto and Sylvio Behring. I was also able to learn from Barreto and Behring directly when these masters conducted seminars at my instructors school several times.

    The training I recieved over the years included all aspects of Jiu-Jitsu not just the sport portion. I know there a lot of sport BJJ schools around and I see what you mean about not learning how to use BJJ in a real fight situation. I will sometimes have students come to me from other schools and tell me that they wanted to learn BJJ to protect themsleves and not enter tournaments. So they will quit their school and join mine.

    It is alright to teach sport Jiu-Jistu and I do so at my school but that is not the my main function though. A BJJ program has to be well rounded and include all aspects of Jiu-Jitsu....self defense, Vale-Tudo and competition. Some schools just care about getting gold medals and focus on just the sport instead.

    I do have to say that earning belts on line is not the way to go and a lot of old school instructors will agree with me on that. I would never promote anyone to a blue with under two years of hard training. Plus not only do they have know all basic aspects of BJJ but they have to learn some basic boxing skills as well. This is my own doing but I think boxing is perfect skill to go with BJJ

    Allow me to restate that I in no way am criticizing their teaching. Personally I think the standard across the board should be raised to include gi sport, nogi sport, MMA/ Vale Tudo, and Self Defense in what Jiu Jitsu instructor's should teach and students should learn. However that's based on the standard I and my instructor believe in. It sounds like Python is doing it right. I understand however that this standard isn't readily available nor realistic to impose as the Jiu Jitsu community stands now.

    Python would you say that two beginners with no grappling foundation could learn acceptable levels of skill, specifically the intangibles such as proper hip movement, timing, etc with only the medium of video?

    (I know that people can pick up an understanding of a move through video, as I own several DVD series myself)
  2. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2011 4:03pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Koresh Jr. View Post
    Allow me to restate that I in no way am criticizing their teaching. Personally I think the standard across the board should be raised to include gi sport, nogi sport, MMA/ Vale Tudo, and Self Defense in what Jiu Jitsu instructor's should teach and students should learn. However that's based on the standard I and my instructor believe in. It sounds like Python is doing it right. I understand however that this standard isn't readily available nor realistic to impose as the Jiu Jitsu community stands now.

    Python would you say that two beginners with no grappling foundation could learn acceptable levels of skill, specifically the intangibles such as proper hip movement, timing, etc with only the medium of video?

    (I know that people can pick up an understanding of a move through video, as I own several DVD series myself)
    I think videos and books should be used for refference only......meaning by going back and seeing if you left out a detail or two. By learning just by video by itself? ......I would have to say no but this is my opinion of course. A video or book can not show a person what mistakes they are making.
  3. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2011 7:16pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    I think videos and books should be used for refference only......meaning by going back and seeing if you left out a detail or two. By learning just by video by itself? ......I would have to say no but this is my opinion of course. A video or book can not show a person what mistakes they are making.
    What about within regards to a video evaluation? Such as I video myself drilling or positionally sparring the moves (like in GUO), and you watch and provide feedback? Can you consistently relay the information necessary for them to progress?
  4. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2011 8:10pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Koresh Jr. View Post
    What about within regards to a video evaluation? Such as I video myself drilling or positionally sparring the moves (like in GUO), and you watch and provide feedback? Can you consistently relay the information necessary for them to progress?
    Technically I guess you can......it will take forever though. Also I would have to make a video of myself showing what they are doing wrong.....too much hassle I think. It would be more benefecial just to train with an instructor in person. Going back and forth using videos to communicate is just simply a task not worth doing. I would say this should be done in parts of this country or the world where there is no way to obtain instruction due to know qualified instructor around. I thought that was the original plan of the Gracie on-line program but it did not turn out that way. More and more people are turning to the Gracie Combatives program because BJJ schools are not providing what most people are lokking for.....self defense.

    I blame this on the BJJ instructors that don't provide a well balanced program. They concentrate only on sport which only accomodates a certain kind of student. What about those that want to train just for self defense only.....they get turned off and leave the school. I am starting to see more BJJ schools going back to the old ways because they are seeing the Gracie Academy pulling in large amounts of students. I mean look at one of their classes.....packed big time.

    BJJ is a fighing art first and foremost but if Black Belts don't teach it as such then you will come up with a watered down version of Jiu-Jitsu which seems to being more the norm. I come across people that train in BJJ and they will say BJJ is just a sport and it lacks a means to fight. I look at them as if they were crazy. I mean I expect this non-sense from BJJ haters but not from our own. Where are they getting these ideas? Have people forgot the old UFC fights, have they forgot the old Vale-Tudo fights from Brazil that were being done before there even was such as thing as MMA.

    BJJ needs to go back to the old ways and become what it used to be....a fighting art....not a sport.
    Last edited by Team Python; 2/18/2011 8:13pm at .
  5. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2011 8:18pm

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    Agreed, but I think an even split between the four aspects (nogi/gi/vale tudo/self defense) should be applied. Also specialization in one of those aspects does and will naturally occur. Care to discuss this in the new thread I created?

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104148
  6. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 1:36am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Technically I guess you can......it will take forever though. Also I would have to make a video of myself showing what they are doing wrong.....too much hassle I think. It would be more benefecial just to train with an instructor in person. Going back and forth using videos to communicate is just simply a task not worth doing. I would say this should be done in parts of this country or the world where there is no way to obtain instruction due to know qualified instructor around. I thought that was the original plan of the Gracie on-line program but it did not turn out that way. More and more people are turning to the Gracie Combatives program because BJJ schools are not providing what most people are lokking for.....self defense.

    I blame this on the BJJ instructors that don't provide a well balanced program. They concentrate only on sport which only accomodates a certain kind of student. What about those that want to train just for self defense only.....they get turned off and leave the school. I am starting to see more BJJ schools going back to the old ways because they are seeing the Gracie Academy pulling in large amounts of students. I mean look at one of their classes.....packed big time.

    BJJ is a fighing art first and foremost but if Black Belts don't teach it as such then you will come up with a watered down version of Jiu-Jitsu which seems to being more the norm. I come across people that train in BJJ and they will say BJJ is just a sport and it lacks a means to fight. I look at them as if they were crazy. I mean I expect this non-sense from BJJ haters but not from our own. Where are they getting these ideas? Have people forgot the old UFC fights, have they forgot the old Vale-Tudo fights from Brazil that were being done before there even was such as thing as MMA.

    BJJ needs to go back to the old ways and become what it used to be....a fighting art....not a sport.
    I agree with out in lagre part, but I also think there is a shortage of truly qualified instructors in BJJ, and to a lesser extent in martial arts in general. Just because you are a skilled fighter, doesn't mean you are a skilled instructor, communicator, or trainer. It takes an entirely different skill set to transfer knowledge to others.

    Seeing as BJJ is relatively new in the American martial arts scene, I've found that overall the instructional techniques and practices are substanard when compare to other martial arts and especially to other combat sports.

    IMO the Gracies are light years ahead of almost anyone else out there in setting up a focused, logical system for teaching funcitonal grappling. The DVD's also contain many technical details that were never shared with me during my group or one-on-one BJJ training. The most common comment I hear from BJJ instructors or other skilled grapplers about the DVDs is that they don't contain anything they didn't already know. I'm sure the guys that I was paying hundreds of dollars to teach me BJJ knew these details too, however it never occured to them share them with me or the other students. I suppose I was supposed to discover these things myself through the trial and error and the magic of mat time.

    Training from the DVDs may not be ideal, however I'm sad to say it has been far superior to any instruction I've received in person.
  7. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 1:49am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    I agree with out in lagre part, but I also think there is a shortage of truly qualified instructors in BJJ, and to a lesser extent in martial arts in general. Just because you are a skilled fighter, doesn't mean you are a skilled instructor, communicator, or trainer. It takes an entirely different skill set to transfer knowledge to others.
    This I can agree with.

    You are right I've watched some of them and read the summaries for the rest and if you asked I could show it all to you. You're also right the Gracie's do an excellent job of presenting it in a logical order.

    But speaking from experience, if I have to teach a class and it's a mix of whites to purples. I need to appeal to most of them, I'll show something basic combined with something complicated and interesting so that everyone gets something out of it. Otherwise you're left with one of two options, the upper belts are bored from learning the same damn mount escapes again or the white belt is stuck learning how to take the back from reverse de la riva guard wondering wtf is a La Riva. Both are undesirable. So trying to please everyone becomes an issue. That's why I believe in 6-9month beginner classes, that focus on pure basics from how to hip escape to how to stand in base and some basic SD is introduced. I'm guessing they didn't have beginner's classes where you trained?

    A lot of gyms have the idea, you'll pick it up as you go and learn the pieces (trial by fire) because they don't want to start over teaching how to do an americana to every new guy who walks in, only to have them quit in a week. Personally it's very frustrating to pour time and energy into teaching someone only to have them leave two months later, so I understand the temptation to just let it be a sink or swim thing.
    Last edited by DKJr; 2/19/2011 1:54am at .
  8. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 1:53am

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    Nope, I wish they did. And as I said, even the instructors that approached for private lessons balked when I asked them to teach me specifically whatever they felt was the most necessary stuff to know for self-defense.
    Last edited by Punisher; 2/19/2011 1:58am at .
  9. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 1:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    Nope, I wish they did. And as I said, even the instructors that approached from private lessons balked when I asked them to teach me specifically whatever they felt was most necessary stuff to know for self-defense.
    Disappointing on the privates part, they should jump at the chance to show you something super easy for as much as you're spending. At least you're not asking them to show you the secrets to the pass their guys use to win or something. That was just poor business sense on their part.
  10. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 2:50am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing is I don't think most had the actual knowledge to do what I was asking. They had never taken the time to sit down and think, "What are the most important BJJ techniques and what order should I teach them in".

    Even those that took me on as a self-defense student were disappointing. You think for the first lesson they would try to cover the basic positions, key fundamentals like base and posture, and try to show me something like the upa/trap and roll. Nope.

    What I got instead was a group class style warm up, aka a lot of rolls and shrimping, followed by two hours of subpar instruction in two different types of takedowns.

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