It's a Sad Day - Gracie University

[chingythingy]

As a GJJ academy, we have regular 'fight simulation classes' where guys take it in turns to be the unskilled opponent wearing boxing gloves. And we often have visitors from sport BJJ clubs all over the world that are blue/purples that join in the class. Everytime the same result has occured - they start off with a sportive mindset and then get a serious wake up call when they eat a punch or three. It may be something as simple as not controlling the opponents posture while elbow escaping, or not previously trying an upa while someones punching them. A classic example is disregarding the arm outside of the triangle whilst setting it up. And is much as I love the open guard/space generating flowy style jiu jitsu, it gets you punched in the face.

We've had guys with 7 or 8 years of BJJ experience walk off the mat saying that they realise they don't know 'real jiu jitsu' at all. So to use your analogy, it turns out that our sportive visitors couldn't swim in the real pool at all.

I'm not sure how it happens everywhere, but where I am at there are intermixed MMA classes that include live sparring with gloves and punches along with the 'sportive' BJJ classes. So there we are not talking 'fight simulation' classes, we are talking live rolling with punches, standup with punches. In other words - no simulation necessary.

While what you are saying may be true for people who really don't train wrestling, striking with MMA and BJJ together, there are a lot of schools that do. So while I don't doubt what you are saying is true about people walking off the mat saying they don't 'know real jiu jitsu', that certainly doesn't describe anyone who has trained live MMA.

I seriously doubt your 'fight simulation' class would hold up to that kind of experience very well.

While I respect what the Combatives program is trying to do, realistically it is just introducing MMA into BJJ a little earlier than some do.

[Team Python]

I'm not sure how it happens everywhere, but where I am at there are intermixed MMA classes that include live sparring with gloves and punches along with the 'sportive' BJJ classes. So there we are not talking 'fight simulation' classes, we are talking live rolling with punches, standup with punches. In other words - no simulation necessary.

While what you are saying may be true for people who really don't train wrestling, striking with MMA and BJJ together, there are a lot of schools that do. So while I don't doubt what you are saying is true about people walking off the mat saying they don't 'know real jiu jitsu', that certainly doesn't describe anyone who has trained live MMA.

I seriously doubt your 'fight simulation' class would hold up to that kind of experience very well.

While I respect what the Combatives program is trying to do, realistically it is just introducing MMA into BJJ a little earlier than some do.

A BJJ school should not need to have a MMA program to have that kind of training. What is sad is that a lot of BJJ schools don't teach how to strike or defend against strikes. They also neglect to spar with striking as well. So they have to have an MMA program to make up for it.

A good BJJ school should be able to teach that from the get go. It is called Vale-Tudo training and a lot of BJJ schools don't teach it because they focus too much on the sport aspect of BJJ instead of the self defense and Vale-Tudo.

[sapateiro]

I'm not sure how it happens everywhere, but where I am at there are intermixed MMA classes that include live sparring with gloves and punches along with the 'sportive' BJJ classes. So there we are not talking 'fight simulation' classes, we are talking live rolling with punches, standup with punches. In other words - no simulation necessary.

While what you are saying may be true for people who really don't train wrestling, striking with MMA and BJJ together, there are a lot of schools that do. So while I don't doubt what you are saying is true about people walking off the mat saying they don't 'know real jiu jitsu', that certainly doesn't describe anyone who has trained live MMA.

I seriously doubt your 'fight simulation' class would hold up to that kind of experience very well.

While I respect what the Combatives program is trying to do, realistically it is just introducing MMA into BJJ a little earlier than some do.

Fight sim classes are very different to MMA training. I coach guys for MMA fights, and it's a totally different mindset.

There's a bad guy who's attacking a good guy. I do agree that the 'dealing with punches' element is relevant in both cases, but the fight sim includes dealing with someone who isn't thinking MMA (or at least modern MMA). It's not even about punching the other guy - it's about surviving the attack by closing the distance (assuming you can't run away), controlling, and submitting. Then we sometimes pressure test it by pre-exhausting guys before they're attacked, or making them dizzy etc etc.

It's also unlikely you'd need any armbar or triangle counters in a real fight. Obviously in a real situation awareness & avoidance is the first port of call, and any close-quarter combat is a last resort. But it's different to MMA.

I'm just about to teach a private class for an MMA fighter, his first fight sim was tuesday night, and he said it was 'totally different' to what he's used to, even if some of the skills are interchangeable.

Just my thoughts :-)

[M1K3]

These fight sim classes, what type of attack are you training to fight against? I'm thinking more along the lines of predatory attacks vs status/dueling type fighting.

Predatory attacks are those where someone is looking to either rob or assault someone for either money or for the thrill of the hunt. They are not looking to get in a fight they are looking for a victim.

Status or dueling type fights are your typical drunken encounters and fights for the status of being a badass or just being pissed off and looking for a fight. Lots of street / bar fights fall into this category. Usually driven by anger, booze or lack of self esteem.

Thanks

[chingythingy]

Fight sim classes are very different to MMA training. I coach guys for MMA fights, and it's a totally different mindset.

There's a bad guy who's attacking a good guy. I do agree that the 'dealing with punches' element is relevant in both cases, but the fight sim includes dealing with someone who isn't thinking MMA (or at least modern MMA). It's not even about punching the other guy - it's about surviving the attack by closing the distance (assuming you can't run away), controlling, and submitting. Then we sometimes pressure test it by pre-exhausting guys before they're attacked, or making them dizzy etc etc.

It's also unlikely you'd need any armbar or triangle counters in a real fight. Obviously in a real situation awareness & avoidance is the first port of call, and any close-quarter combat is a last resort. But it's different to MMA.

I'm just about to teach a private class for an MMA fighter, his first fight sim was tuesday night, and he said it was 'totally different' to what he's used to, even if some of the skills are interchangeable.

Just my thoughts :-)

So good feedback and comments.

Let me ask you about this scenario. I've been recently helping out a local Gracie Garage for a couple reasons - one that I wanted to review studying the Combatives with others learning it, and two they welcome experienced grapplers for various reasons.

What I am finding out is although they are training the Combatives lessons to spec, they are missing what I would describe as core fundamental attributes on the ground. What I mean is things like base, like training fundamental movements such as rolls, shrimping of various kinds, 4 box drills, leg extension triangle practice, granby roll practice, etc.

I'm strongly encouraging these guys along the lines of practicing the fight sim stuff. I've also given them some warmup drills to do before class and on their own to start to develop some of these fundamentals - flexibility, strength in positions, and core body awareness.

I've also found they are unable to distinguish between really simple things in basic positions, like in guard it's a good strategy to control posture by holding someone down, but under side control it's not and you need to build a frame.

Have you seen this also, and what do you do to offset this kind of gap?

IME regarding the MMA stuff and lack of necessity to have armbar and triangle counters - I would definitely say that with the rise in popularity of grappling arts, it might be a good idea to have fundamentals straight for basic defense, like both arms in or out. It just builds good habits.

[Punisher]

So good feedback and comments.

Let me ask you about this scenario. I've been recently helping out a local Gracie Garage for a couple reasons - one that I wanted to review studying the Combatives with others learning it, and two they welcome experienced grapplers for various reasons.

What I am finding out is although they are training the Combatives lessons to spec, they are missing what I would describe as core fundamental attributes on the ground. What I mean is things like base, like training fundamental movements such as rolls, shrimping of various kinds, 4 box drills, leg extension triangle practice, granby roll practice, etc.

I'm strongly encouraging these guys along the lines of practicing the fight sim stuff. I've also given them some warmup drills to do before class and on their own to start to develop some of these fundamentals - flexibility, strength in positions, and core body awareness.

I've also found they are unable to distinguish between really simple things in basic positions, like in guard it's a good strategy to control posture by holding someone down, but under side control it's not and you need to build a frame.

Have you seen this also, and what do you do to offset this kind of gap?

IME regarding the MMA stuff and lack of necessity to have armbar and triangle counters - I would definitely say that with the rise in popularity of grappling arts, it might be a good idea to have fundamentals straight for basic defense, like both arms in or out. It just builds good habits.

Coming in from the outside it can be easy to see what is "missing" from any program or regimn. I contend that what you say is missing is really there just in a different way.

The first things you say are "missing" are basic conditioning drills and warm ups designed to replicate fundamental movements. Personally I've never found rolling or shrimping across the mat very usefull. When we practice the GC program we warm up by systematically going through all the different moves we know from a given position. It helps use review fundamental movements and lets us know if we are doing them right. If someone is having trouble applying an individual techinque we review and drill that one until the problem is solved. Only then do we add the new technique for the day and move on to reflex development or fight sim drills.

As far as things like base, controlling posture in guard, building a frame when on bottom in side control, it sounds like this Gracie Garage is missing on some of the things Rener and Ryron repeatedly stress on the DVDs. The instruction on maintaining the mount, side control, and other poistions is some the best I ever seen and, I while I can see someone going through the GC program not being able to define "base" they won't be able to do the techniques effectively without it. If they are training as instructed on the DVDs I can't see how they would be missing this both because of the quality instruction and the repeated direction to the "bad guy" to check his partners technique.

The whole punch block series is about controling the opponents posture in guard (stage 1). This the starting point for almost all the techniques shown from the guard. Once again I feel the DVDs do a excellent job of stressing the importance of this and showing how to actually do it. Unless your friends are watching the DVDs in fast forward so simply skipping to the fight simulation drills, I can't see how they could miss this.

[sapateiro]

Coming in from the outside it can be easy to see what is "missing" from any program or regimn. I contend that what you say is missing is really there just in a different way.

The first things you say are "missing" are basic conditioning drills and warm ups designed to replicate fundamental movements. Personally I've never found rolling or shrimping across the mat very usefull. When we practice the GC program we warm up by systematically going through all the different moves we know from a given position. It helps use review fundamental movements and lets us know if we are doing them right. If someone is having trouble applying an individual techinque we review and drill that one until the problem is solved. Only then do we add the new technique for the day and move on to reflex development or fight sim drills.

As far as things like base, controlling posture in guard, building a frame when on bottom in side control, it sounds like this Gracie Garage is missing on some of the things Rener and Ryron repeatedly stress on the DVDs. The instruction on maintaining the mount, side control, and other poistions is some the best I ever seen and, I while I can see someone going through the GC program not being able to define "base" they won't be able to do the techniques effectively without it. If they are training as instructed on the DVDs I can't see how they would be missing this both because of the quality instruction and the repeated direction to the "bad guy" to check his partners technique.

The whole punch block series is about controling the opponents posture in guard (stage 1). This the starting point for almost all the techniques shown from the guard. Once again I feel the DVDs do a excellent job of stressing the importance of this and showing how to actually do it. Unless your friends are watching the DVDs in fast forward so simply skipping to the fight simulation drills, I can't see how they could miss this.

Agreed - shrimping is in the shrimp escape from sidemount class (I often start that class with shrimping across the mat), and distancing is a big focus in the combatives programme - punch block 1 to 5 are all about safe distancing, and the shrimp escape from sidemount deals with three distances under sidemount, and shows how to minimise punches from there also if my memory serves me right.

Where there is a big focus difference is on being inside the guard - in a street environment the chances of the attacker having a good guard is slim, but in sport jiu jitsu you're gonna spend a lot of time there. So the combatives programme has a very basic strategy from there, whereas on the sportive side there are hundreds of guard passes to choose from.

[migo]

A BJJ school should not need to have a MMA program to have that kind of training. What is sad is that a lot of BJJ schools don't teach how to strike or defend against strikes. They also neglect to spar with striking as well. So they have to have an MMA program to make up for it.

A good BJJ school should be able to teach that from the get go. It is called Vale-Tudo training and a lot of BJJ schools don't teach it because they focus too much on the sport aspect of BJJ instead of the self defense and Vale-Tudo.

I totally disagree with this. Why learn shitty striking in BJJ when you could learn good striking from boxing and Muay Thai? There's a similar issue with lack of takedowns in BJJ, but why learn shitty takedowns in BJJ when you could learn good ones in Judo and wrestling?

[Punisher]

I totally disagree with this. Why learn shitty striking in BJJ when you could learn good striking from boxing and Muay Thai? There's a similar issue with lack of takedowns in BJJ, but why learn shitty takedowns in BJJ when you could learn good ones in Judo and wrestling?

It doesn't have to shitty. You can still teach good core basic fundamentals. The difference should be a matter of variety and quantity, not quality.

Provided they take the time learn how to do and coach it properly, I have no problem with a BJJ instructor teaching thier students a jab, cross, and hook as well as some basic foot work and defense.

The same should be down with takedowns and takedown defense. Wrestlers and judoka know literally hundreds of ways to take people down. At my school we know/practice about half a dozen. The thing is, technique-wise our double leg is the same as the wrestlers and our hip throw is the same as the judoka. The wrestlers and judoka probably still do them better, simply because of repetition, but good technique is good technique.

[Team Python]

I totally disagree with this. Why learn shitty striking in BJJ when you could learn good striking from boxing and Muay Thai? There's a similar issue with lack of takedowns in BJJ, but why learn shitty takedowns in BJJ when you could learn good ones in Judo and wrestling?

I don't know where you get the idea we do shitty striking.....is this based on experience or it just popped up in your head. :angry5: