It's a Sad Day - Gracie University

**Punisher** · Posted On: 12/30/2010 11:20pm

Originally Posted by EternalRage

Are you familiar with Roy Harris? He wrote this article about the progression through BJJ:
http://www.onthemat.com/articles/Pro...0_13_2005.html

You were a white belt for a year, and you spent that time mostly defending and tapping out. I'm SURE you learned something that an untrained person wouldn't know how to do. Like escaping the mounted position with an upa. How about bridging out of a sidemount and regaining guard. Or maybe how to break grips off your lapel or belt.

If you're expecting to tap out blues and purples with armbars and triangles, of course you're going to be disappointed. You have to know how to control someone in a dominant position to do that. You have to know how to get to that position with sweeps and reversals. And on top of that, you have to have the feel for leverage and momentum that, yes, only comes with mat time.

If it were that simple, MMA gyms wouldn't have a separate kickboxing coach, BJJ coach, boxing coach, wrestling coach, etc. Cross training these days means becoming a student of each art. It's compartmentalization first, then integration by someone with MMA experience.

I'm familiar with Roy Harris and have read his progression before. I also think it is bullshit. It may be an accurate representation on what learning BJJ is like, but not what is should be, or at least what it can be.

Once again it boils down to the sport vs self defense debate, both in the schools motivation in teaching and the students motivation in learning.

Sports based schools are about attracting and keeping the most gifted and dedicated students. They are about preparing people for competion and don't really care about people that can't hack it and don't care about building people's confidence. Roy's advice white belts is basically "suck it up and pay your dues and you'll be better for IF you make to the other side". If I joined a school because I wanted to compete in BJJ tournaments, and I found out I couldn't make it, no be deal BJJ comps are more me, I guess I'll just stick to point sparring.

Self defense schools are very different. They are in large part about building the confidence the student. Yes, that confidence must be based on real accomplishment, not bullshido, but it is important for the student walks away from each class knowing they are getting better. You do this by starting of easy and making things more difficult as you go along.

A lot BJJ instructors talk about teaching techniques in reverse. I'm a big fan of this, especially for newer students. For example when teaching someone I triangle you sent them up with the submission practically locked in and show them how to squeeze and finish it. This gives them a clear objective and an overall idea of where they want be when it is all said and done. It is also practically impossible to mess up. Then you back out a step and work on something like getting the guys arms across after you've already locked the legs. Once they look like they have that you back out a step and show them how to properly lock up the legs from a position that SCREAMS triangle like when the guy trys the Gracie Giift guard pass. If they are having problems with that you have them go back to working on getting the arm across and the squeeze.

You do things this way, you have a student leaving class who succeeded a lot more times than he failed. If you do it the other way its just the opposite. I try a triangle set up (the hardest part) and it doesn't work, I fail. I get the set up, but the guy defends before I lock my legs, I fail. No I have to go back to the hard part and try (and probably fail again).

Programs like Gracie Combatives START out easy so people stick with them. No one gets better if they quit.

Finally I also agree it is probably better to learn core skills in various discplines before tyring to integrate them together but you need teach skills in a way set up for integration. For example a sports based BJJ my teach a variation of an mount escape where you create space by pushing with both of your arms, while a MMA school or self defence school would teach the same technqiue with only arm pushing and the other underhooking to prevent the guy from posting up and punching. In the sport BJJ school the one arm technique would be "wrong" because it isn't the most effective/efficent way to create space in the given ruleset. If your focus is MMA or self defense it would be a waste of time to learn the two arm version only to modify your technique at some later date an time to address the threat of punches.

**Punisher** · Posted On: 12/30/2010 11:23pm

And one last time, for the record, I wish there was a Gracie Barra school here, or a certifed GJJ academy teaching the GC program, or a school like Jeff's or Pythons. If there was I'd probably train there. But there's not. So I do Gracie Combatives. And my ground game is a lot better for it.

**chingythingy** · Posted On: 12/31/2010 5:50am

Originally Posted by Punisher

And one last time, for the record, I wish there was a Gracie Barra school here, or a certifed GJJ academy teaching the GC program, or a school like Jeff's or Pythons. If there was I'd probably train there. But there's not. So I do Gracie Combatives. And my ground game is a lot better for it.

Actually that's a pretty good option for getting some core things to focus on to bridge the gap from white belt to blue. You can do that while still rolling at a place that has higher belts to test things out. I just wouldn't do it in a vacuum or with only other noobs. There is value in the repetitions you went through having people smash you.

It is very true that being the only white belt or the newest white belt in a place that you will seldom get to practice submissions. Usually the first year to 2 years you learn defense and positions. This is a frustrating but valuable part of your development. If you are at a crappy school and you are doing submissions mostly the first 2 years you will have serious holes in your game that otherwise you would not.

From what I've seen somewhere between the 2 year mark and on the gap starts to close. All those people that use to smash you - some of them won't any more. Some will - either they have very developed attributes or are growing a lot too.

**Annabelle Keeh** · Posted On: 1/01/2011 4:27pm

I know there are good BJJ schools at my area. And I don't want to say that all BJJ schools are bad. I just haven't found one that is right for me.

**Jeff C.** · Posted On: 1/01/2011 9:01pm

Annabelle, BJJ unfortunately is ate-up with male chauvinism. It is hard for any female to find a suitable BJJ school. Good luck to you!

Jeff cook

**Annabelle Keeh** · Posted On: 1/03/2011 12:02pm

Do you think jeff???respected opinion....:icon_salu

**Jeff C.** · Posted On: 1/03/2011 6:28pm

I've seen it first-hand Annabelle, and I inquired into it with my BJJ friends around the country. Unfortunately it can be pretty tough on females. Stick it out though! Whip some ass! ;-)

Jeff Cook

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 1/03/2011 10:50pm

Originally Posted by Punisher

EternalRage, no disrespect, but I can't help the feeling you're talking out both sides of your mouth in order to justify your belief that my old method of BJJ training was superior than I think it was and new method is inferior than I think it is.

At first you tell me I shouldn't be satisfied with just tapping out people who don't know what the are doing, but then say I shouldn't expect to get submission on people more experienced and should focus on tapping newbies.

No contradiction there. Adding a move to your arsenal usually means applying it first to training partners less experienced than you. But you shouldn't stay there, satisfied with your level of technique. Keep learning to apply it against more and more experienced people.

I'm not talking about not being able to armbar blues and purples in class. I'm complaining about not even being able to ATTEMPT armbars on blue and purples in class.

If you are in a neutral position, you have to sweep or pass or whatever to get to a dominant position. Then you have to control your opponent in that position, usually involves controlling the hips and effectively distributing your own weight, by using your own hips and grips. Attempting the submission then requires knowledge of combinations of submissions or controls that will elicit different responses from your opponent. Then it is a matter of keeping an eye out for the right opportunity.

If you are a white belt, chances are you don't have the mat time or even just knowledge of techniques to get all the way to an armbar on a blue and definitely a purple during a free roll, unless they are purposely letting you get there.

For the record I did ask for help. Most people were unwilling or unable to do so. Often I would get what I now know to be incorrect technical advice, or a half hearted attempt to lighten up for the next 30 seconds. A lot of this stemmed from the attitude of the guy who taught most of the classes (blue when I started, purple when I left) If he didn't have much time for newbies during instruction, why would anyone try to help us out during sparring.

Well, that's unfortunate. I'm sorry your experience was not more constructive.

And we did do positional rolling, and I still do. At the school I was at positional rolling went something like:

I'm in guard on bottom. Guy on top blows through my guard in 2 seconds and finishes with a painful and/or humilating submission. Repeat for 3 minutes. Switch.

I'm in guard on top. I try the one guard pass I kinda know since its the only one we've worked on either a Tues or Thurs this month. Guy on bottom either sweeps me right away or looks at me with disgust as I struggle to break his guard for next 2 minutes 59 seconds.

Even when the scope of the roll is narrowed, you still have to break things down and work on individual components of a move. Slideyfoot explains it well in post 897. Positional rolling is great because you get to frequently reset into a situation where you have ample opportunity to work those individual components.

I'm curious about how the material was presented at your academy. Most instructors that I've seen teach a sequence of moves every class, as Jeff C stated earlier. Like a technique, then a variation, maybe a counter, a counter to the counter. It makes learning patterns of moves and responses easier, and I suppose this lends some credit to the idea of a curriculum.

If you were taught just a random assortment of moves - like an armbar from guard, then a keylock from sidemount, and then a half guard sweep, I can see how that might be fragmented. If that was the case, again that is quite unfortunate.

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 9:46am

Originally Posted by Punisher

I'm familiar with Roy Harris and have read his progression before. I also think it is bullshit. It may be an accurate representation on what learning BJJ is like, but not what is should be, or at least what it can be.

Once again it boils down to the sport vs self defense debate, both in the schools motivation in teaching and the students motivation in learning.

Sports based schools are about attracting and keeping the most gifted and dedicated students. They are about preparing people for competion and don't really care about people that can't hack it and don't care about building people's confidence. Roy's advice white belts is basically "suck it up and pay your dues and you'll be better for IF you make to the other side". If I joined a school because I wanted to compete in BJJ tournaments, and I found out I couldn't make it, no be deal BJJ comps are more me, I guess I'll just stick to point sparring.

That is certainly not what I have seen. If sports based schools weeded out students like that, they wouldn't stay in business. The problem is not that schools aren't nurturing to their students, it's how easily beginners focus on the wrong things as indicators of their development.

What most white belts don't realize is that by "sucking it up and paying their dues", they are still learning. No, they can't armbar someone immediately in a free roll, but they can shrimp out of a sidemount. Or upa out of a mount. They posture in someone's guard and work to break it open.

In combat sports, the emphasis is on application. And if you're new, then you won't be able to apply as well as the 3 year blue belt and definitely not the 6 year purple. Yet beginners tend to ignore their own process and get swept up in "who tapped who" and "why do I keep getting submitted".

Self defense schools are very different. They are in large part about building the confidence the student. Yes, that confidence must be based on real accomplishment, not bullshido, but it is important for the student walks away from each class knowing they are getting better. You do this by starting of easy and making things more difficult as you go along.

A lot BJJ instructors talk about teaching techniques in reverse. I'm a big fan of this, especially for newer students. For example when teaching someone I triangle you sent them up with the submission practically locked in and show them how to squeeze and finish it. This gives them a clear objective and an overall idea of where they want be when it is all said and done. It is also practically impossible to mess up. Then you back out a step and work on something like getting the guys arms across after you've already locked the legs. Once they look like they have that you back out a step and show them how to properly lock up the legs from a position that SCREAMS triangle like when the guy trys the Gracie Giift guard pass. If they are having problems with that you have them go back to working on getting the arm across and the squeeze.

You do things this way, you have a student leaving class who succeeded a lot more times than he failed. If you do it the other way its just the opposite. I try a triangle set up (the hardest part) and it doesn't work, I fail. I get the set up, but the guy defends before I lock my legs, I fail. No I have to go back to the hard part and try (and probably fail again).

Seems like an interesting way to teach someone. But again, how the beginner views the process is important. If you're able to get a set up on a triangle, it means you were able to control his posture, you were able to do something like pushing one arm in, or maybe you jump roped an arm. You climbed your guard high over his arm, but then as you were going to establish the figure four, he postured up and broke out. Seems like there was a lot of learning and progress right there, regardless of the fact that there was no tap. As opposed to just pulling someone's head down in a locked in triangle over and over and getting the impression of "success".

Finally I also agree it is probably better to learn core skills in various discplines before tyring to integrate them together but you need teach skills in a way set up for integration. For example a sports based BJJ my teach a variation of an mount escape where you create space by pushing with both of your arms, while a MMA school or self defence school would teach the same technqiue with only arm pushing and the other underhooking to prevent the guy from posting up and punching. In the sport BJJ school the one arm technique would be "wrong" because it isn't the most effective/efficent way to create space in the given ruleset. If your focus is MMA or self defense it would be a waste of time to learn the two arm version only to modify your technique at some later date an time to address the threat of punches.

I'd agree with that, I mistook what you said earlier. When you stated that you didn't want to learn BJJ but just wanted "functional grappling", it kinda sounded like you wanted the "crappling" you see in some other martial arts systems. Thought you meant BJJ period instead of just sport BJJ.