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  1. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2010 5:05pm

    Join us... or die
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    lol i hear an echo.
  2. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 2:39am

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    A few questions:

    1. Who do you train with in BJJ

    2. How long you been training

    3. Who is 'we"

    4. Do you train in other fighting arts

    The reason for the questions is to get a better idea on your training background.....just curious that's all.
    Long Story Short

    1. Right now I don't train under BJJ under anyone, I'm simply doing Gracie Combatives

    2. I spent a year a Rickson Gracie affliate in 2005. In 2006 I bought a karate school and brought in a guy with who is a black in Judo and blue belt in BJJ under Pedro Sauer to be the grappling coach for my mma program. Our MMA group practices on Monday, Wednesdays, and Saturdays with Saturday exclusively devoted to grappling. I bought the GC program last year to help my own personal ground game. I meet with a group of people Fridays to go through the program.

    3. When I bought the DVDs, checked them out, and decided it was someone I wanted to do, I put out a call for training partners. I made it clear it wasn't a class being offered by our school and I wasn't an instructor. I was a just a guy working out with some DVDs and anyone who wanted to join me is welcome. Two teenage boys and one of the other instructors at my school commonly attend.

    4. Yes. I've been training in martial arts for almost 30 years and have black belts in two different types of kenpo karate. I began personally training in MMA since 2004. I currently run a martial arts school, where our "karate" program is really MMA geared towards self defense.
  3. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 3:05am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    Long Story Short

    1. Right now I don't train under BJJ under anyone, I'm simply doing Gracie Combatives

    2. I spent a year a Rickson Gracie affliate in 2005. In 2006 I bought a karate school and brought in a guy with who is a black in Judo and blue belt in BJJ under Pedro Sauer to be the grappling coach for my mma program. Our MMA group practices on Monday, Wednesdays, and Saturdays with Saturday exclusively devoted to grappling. I bought the GC program last year to help my own personal ground game. I meet with a group of people Fridays to go through the program.

    3. When I bought the DVDs, checked them out, and decided it was someone I wanted to do, I put out a call for training partners. I made it clear it wasn't a class being offered by our school and I wasn't an instructor. I was a just a guy working out with some DVDs and anyone who wanted to join me is welcome. Two teenage boys and one of the other instructors at my school commonly attend.

    4. Yes. I've been training in martial arts for almost 30 years and have black belts in two different types of kenpo karate. I began personally training in MMA since 2004. I currently run a martial arts school, where our "karate" program is really MMA geared towards self defense.
    Sounds good......I think you would have a different out look if you did train regularly at a BJJ school. You would progress a lot faster if you had a certified professor teaching you BJJ.....watching videos would enhance your training but it does not replace learning from an instructor. Would you think a person learning Karate from videos only would make that person proficient in Karate…..probably not.
  4. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 3:20am

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
    The Gracies offer no distinction between a combatives blue belt and a BJJ blue belt, other than claims that the former would be more effective in a fight.

    On the contrary, I think that eventually a significant portion of Combatives practitioners who go as far as to grade and eventually open their own Gracie Garages are those who were unwilling to stick it out in an actual academy. However I believe it will attract more of those who do not want to put in the blood and sweat.
    One reason why I started my own school, and brought in trained grapplers to train me, was I couldn't get the type of training I wanted.

    In 2005 I went to the Rickson Gracie school to learn functional grappling that I could use in MMA and for self-defense. Unfortunately that school focused on sport BJJ, as did every BJJ school that I visited in my area. Even worse, no school seemed to have a structured curriculum that taught grappling in logical order.


    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
    Untrained resistance vs trained resistance - you're going to learn how to apply the technique better against the latter. If you're a blue belt training all the time with white belts, you are not going to progress as fast as if you were training all the time with purple belts.

    Rener and Ryron Gracie market combatives as "the same moves, just in a different context." I think they do have a very valid point in observing that much of the original self defense applications have been set aside in favor of sport in BJJ, but I don't think this means you should feign a lesser level of skill when you can offer your training partner more.
    That's not nesscarily true. "Trained resistance" isn't always better resistance. I think you should train for what is most likely to happen. Pretty much anywhere other than inside the dojo, you are much more likely to encounter someone who doesn't know BJJ. Even inside the dojo, untrained resistance is a good place to start. I'll give you an example.

    When I trained BJJ at an academy, I learned the arm bar from the guard. While I learned the basics of HOW to do the arm bar, I never really learned WHEN to do the arm bar, and never got a chance to practice it in a realistic setting. After spending a whole class working on arm bars, I'd be all pumped to try it out in sparring, only to find none one would give me the opportunity, especially blues and purples. They know better to put their arms on a someones chest, so I never ever got a chance to attempt it. How did that make me better?

    In the year I was there, I never got to attempt and armbar from the mount, a rear naked choke, or viturally any other submission when sparring. Maybe I was just ina school full of dicks, but all the blues and purples at the school I went too were foucsed on smashing white belts and prepping for their next tournament to be much of help during sparring.
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 3:45am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    ... In the year I was there, I never got to attempt and armbar from the mount, a rear naked choke, or viturally any other submission when sparring. Maybe I was just ina school full of dicks, but all the blues and purples at the school I went too were foucsed on smashing white belts and prepping for their next tournament to be much of help during sparring.
    That's pretty much been my experience too. Very rarely did anyone offer any real help outside of just drilling an individual technique, there was a solitary black belt that I knew through college who for some reason took me under his wing a bit.
    Don't let it stop you, though. Its just a sign of the average personality type that's drawn to BJJ. There are a few diamonds in the rough but they are far outnumbered by the dicks.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 3:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose View Post
    The "untrained guy" argument is the same tired old nonsense that traditionalists bring up when wing chun or shotokan black belts can't defend themselves against bjj blue belts or decent wrestlers. "Oh but we're not training to fight UFC fighters, you're not very likely to get in a fight with them..."

    It's ridiculous. The reason that we don't spend any time learning how to fight untrained people is because they suck. If you get anyway decent at boxing/wrestling/jits then untrained people are simply fresh meat. And the better you get, the more you're able to deal with higher level guys in those disciplines, the easier it gets to beat people with no training. It's simply an excuse given for inferior training. Just because the gracies are saying it doesn't make it any less of an excuse.
    Everybody has to start somewhere and I'm a firm believer people need to need to spend their finite training time on what is going to be most useful for them.

    I'll be honest, I'm not concerned about defending myself against BJJ blue belts or decent wrestlers. The chances of me fighting one of these people outside of the gym is next to nothing. That's not an excuse, its reality.

    I once got into an agrument with a guy here at Bullshido about why I didn't think I needed to know how to do a omaplata. He said, "Then what are you going to do if he counters your triangle?" I replied that IF I get in a fight, and IF I can't talk my way out, and IF I can't run away, and IF the guy takes me down, and IF I can't get up, and IF I get the opportunity to attempt and triangle, and IF the guy counters by wrapping his arm around his leg so I can't pull his arm across, I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

    Even in my martial arts training, my stand up, take down defense, and getting back up to my feet are all going to take preceedence in my training time over a counter to a counter of a submission.

    Finally, there are problems with only training to deal with skilled people. First is most people only train to deal with people skilled in their particular discipline. No dobut a skilled boxer should be handle someone with no formal striking training, unless that person is skilled in grappling. In that case the boxer isn't likely to do any better shotokan or wing chun guy.

    Secondly, and more dangerously, people get too confident in their own skill and dismiss how effective even unrefined attacks can be to the point where the no longer train to deal with them.
  7. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 5:55am

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     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    When I trained BJJ at an academy, I learned the arm bar from the guard. While I learned the basics of HOW to do the arm bar, I never really learned WHEN to do the arm bar, and never got a chance to practice it in a realistic setting. After spending a whole class working on arm bars, I'd be all pumped to try it out in sparring, only to find none one would give me the opportunity, especially blues and purples. They know better to put their arms on a someones chest, so I never ever got a chance to attempt it. How did that make me better?

    In the year I was there, I never got to attempt and armbar from the mount, a rear naked choke, or viturally any other submission when sparring.
    I can see what you're saying (if I understand correctly, you couldn't practice what you'd learned, because everyone was aware of the defence and wasn't willing to put themselves in bad positions), but this does seem to reflect the arguments that have been made about resistance in this thread.

    BJJ is difficult, and it takes a long time to develop competency. Generally speaking, the process is that after you start as a white belt, you spend your first few months, or even years, squashed under dominant positions and getting tapped (unless you're particularly athletic or have prior grappling experience). Worse still, people tend to be improving at the same rate as you or faster, so it can feel like you're not progressing.

    Eventually, other people join, meaning you are no longer the newest student. This is when you get the opportunity to work on that armbar, as now you have that untrained opponent. Also, it isn't too constructive to go into sparring thinking "right, I'm going to do that armbar now." This is particularly true of submissions. A better approach is to break it down into component parts, and work on those. E.g, "right, I'm going to work on using my legs to break their posture in guard."

    It is essential to have those core details I talked about earlier, to get you into position to try the techniques you've just learned in class. In other words, that's how you learn the 'when' you spoke about. You learn how people react when you move your hips that way, put your hand there, grab that collar etc. That experience, and the core details it develops, comes from regular sparring: again, the key element is resistance. There is a huge difference between drilling an armbar with no resistance, and successfully applying it in a realistic setting.

    To do the latter takes more than just doing the former over and over again (although repeated drilling definitely helps, and is another essential element of training. It shouldn't be the only element, however, as it appears to be in Gracie Combatives). To repeat, it takes resistance.

    So from what you posted, it sounds as if you had many chances to practice the arm bar in a realistic setting, but you were looking at the end goal rather than the steps you need to take to get there.

    Of course, I'm jumping on one example you posted to illustrate a broader point you were making, without having met you or knowing the full extent of your training circumstances (aside from what you just posted now, earlier this year, and in 2009). Out of interest, did many new people join up in that year? Or were you at the bottom of the food chain the whole time you were there?

    Also, size makes a difference: I'm small, so particularly when I started, it was rare I'd get the chance to develop any offence (though on the other hand, I'm fortunate in that I started at the Roger Gracie Academy, which split classes by level, so I wasn't just getting crushed by blues and purples every session). Even after over four years, I still mostly work on defence, unless I'm paired up with a white belt and they aren't significantly larger/more athletic.
  8. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 8:36am


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    Everybody has to start somewhere and I'm a firm believer people need to need to spend their finite training time on what is going to be most useful for them.
    And that's why you should spend your time training in the most effective way...

    Here's the thing. As Slideyfoot was saying above, yes, it takes a long time to get good at BJJ, you spend a lot of time getting your ass kicked, and finally you get to the point where you can work on your offence. But you know what? That's reality. Exact same thing happened to me in boxing, exact same thing in wrestling. You're trying to fight a grown man here, you're going to need to develop at least some skill to beat him.

    It takes time and effort to get good enough at an armbar to even use it on someone who doesn't know what they're doing. You brought up the example of purples and blues never giving you the chance to armbar them. Well, if you had kept training, you would have been able to armbar someone one day, then consistently armbar white belts, then maybe catch a blue belt...

    I train with a purple belt who actually specialises in opening the guard using a kind of combination rape choke/hip control position. It is incredibly difficult to armbar him from this position because he has the experience to pull it off. But you know what? When i roll with a newbie and they try and rape choke me, i armbar them in half a second. If you can beat skilled people, untrained people are EASY.

    Even in my martial arts training, my stand up, take down defense, and getting back up to my feet are all going to take preceedence in my training time over a counter to a counter of a submission.

    Finally, there are problems with only training to deal with skilled people. First is most people only train to deal with people skilled in their particular discipline. No dobut a skilled boxer should be handle someone with no formal striking training, unless that person is skilled in grappling. In that case the boxer isn't likely to do any better shotokan or wing chun guy.
    So cross-train.

    Secondly, and more dangerously, people get too confident in their own skill and dismiss how effective even unrefined attacks can be to the point where the no longer train to deal with them.
    Such as?

    If i'm boxing a newbie its ridiculously easy to punch them at will becuase they throw bad, looping telegraphed punches leaving themselves wide open to counters.

    If i'm wrestling a newbie they stand the wrong way and leave themselves open to easy shots, go for silly grips which let me control their hips and generally have bad posture and balance making them really easy to take down.

    If i'm rolling with a newbie, they do retarded things like put themselves in triangles, try and headlock pass the guard, try and bench off mount etc. All making them a thousand times easier to tap than any decent blue belt.

    I'm not sure what an untrained guy is going to do that's so worrying we should be training for it.
  9. Jeff C. is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 9:36am


     Style: Ju-Jitsu/BJJ/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Punisher, have you asked those blues and purples for HELP? Have you asked anyone to help you with strategy? If you have and they refuse to help you, I suggest you find another BJJ school ASAP. In the school I attend (Wolfpack BJJ, Sarasota, FL - Charles Dos Anjos), we not only learn the techniques, but we learn the setups. We NEVER learn just one technique; we incorporate each one into a series that demonstrates a strategy - either a counter to other moves, or a way to set up your opponent to slap the chosen technique on him/her. Then, when we roll, if you ask your opponent to give you openings to try out what you just learned, there isn't a student or instructor in the school who won't slow down, give you openings, and coach you through completion. Then again a significant percentage of the students are NAGA and PanAm champions, so they know how to cooperatively train with resistance.

    I have found this to be true at every BJJ seminar I have been to also.

    Good luck to you!

    Jeff Cook
  10. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 12:45pm

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    On thing I am tired of hearing is the "BJJ takes time". Which is exactly what karate and kung fu guys say when they try to explain it takes 20 years of training in their art to learn how to defend themsevles after they see a 15 year Black Belt get his has handed to him by someone who signed up yesterday.

    I know there is no substitute for training, but after going 2-3 times a week for a whole year, you think you would be able to pick a thing or two that you could use against someone who hasn't been doing that. If not, something is really wrong.

    Here's news flash. I don't even really want to learn BJJ, I want to learn functional grappling for self-defense. If I could find a decent BJJ school in my area that would offer that and be able to teach it competently I would probably go there, but so far I haven't found one.

    My criteria for a BJJ/grappling program is pretty simple.

    Solid Technical Instruction: Unfortunately most BJJ schools I've trained at were lacking in this area. Plenty of talented grapplers but few talented teachers willing and able to effectively communicate what is essential for making a technique correct. If you ask a guy "Why couldn't I finish that trianlge?" and he says "You just need more mat time" he's not trying to help you he's trying to sell you next months membership.

    A Set Rotating Curriculum: I want I school/program that puts some thought into what they teach and when. Most BJJ schools in my area seem to simply work on whatever the instructor wants to that night, with no rhyme or reason. This makes it difficult to learn and build a cohesive game. At best you end up with a bunch of dots with no way to connect them.

    Begineers Class: As somoeone who admittedly doesn't know what he is doing, I want a class devoted to people like me. I want to focus on the basic applications of basic techniques and build a level of proficiency in those before moving on to more advanced variations and counters. Most schools in my area have a single BJJ class for adults, with no separation for rank or skill level.

    Self Defense Focus: Althgouh I'd settle for inclusion. My goal in training isn't to compete in BJJ tournaments. I want training that at least includes: takedowns, variations without the gi, and acknowledgment that the other guy can strike. All the schools I've been to in my area are sports focused, which colors what and how they teach. They do teach techniques that leave you exposed to strikes, and don't teach techniques designed to protect you from them. I used to ask questions like, "Doesn't this leave you open to be punched?" or "How would prevent the guy from punching me in this position". More often than not, I was told to learn the "BJJ" application first and once I got good enough I could join the MMA class to learn how add strike defense to my game.


    I've visited almost every BJJ school and MMA gym in my area, and there isn't one that fits the above criteria. Gracie Combatives does. I had basically had given up on BJJ and decided to focus on my stand up and wrestling until I started the program. If there was a certified GJJ Academy the follows the GC curriculum in my area I would train there. But there's not.

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