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  1. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 3:54pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    and rather than unsuccessfully try to dig myself out of another hole, i'll defer to y'all, and note that i posted a thought on the Sad Day pt. 2 thread.
    the hole i was referring to in this post was the no gi bjj/10th pjj talks.
  2. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 2:45pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think its time to stoke the coals of this thread, now that the Master Cycle has been out for about 4 months. I would to begin this by asking for clarification: what are the main point(s) of this thread/investigation? Is it to challenge the training mentality, that is, training for "street" opponents versus training for "sportive" opponents? Is it the awarding of rank through video evaluation? Is it having a linear curriculum with clear requirements for each belt color and level? Is it all these, and/or something else?

    To the rank through video evaluation, I would say that what you put into your training is what you get out, and that the visual evaluation from trained, ethical instructors would be acceptable evaluation. also, Helio Gracie learned Japanese jiu jitsu by watching it being done/taught, it being a few years before he stepped on the mats himself.
    one question i have, due to what seems like the whimsical dismissal of the concept of GU, is this: who is to say that just because it is through video it is inherently a bad way to train? i could imagine a time when earning rank in brazilian jiu jitsu outside of brazil, or better yet, from a non-brazillian, would be considered illegitimate.

    as for having a linear curriculum, roy harris seems to have planned his belt testing requirements some time ago, having more or less detailed requirements for blue, purple, brown, and black belts.
  3. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 3:15pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To the first topic of my previous post,, I would offer a few points.

    -xande ribeiro had a few words after this years mundials:
    "And now about the tournament, Unfortunately we didn’t see too much Jiu-Jitsu… the real one… BJJ rules are messing up what jiu-jitsu really is. People are fighting for the advantage, for the point and for the win…. but… what about attacking the arm, triangles, chokes, collar chokes…. now jiu-jitsu/BJJ is all about the sweeps, about holding the legs and stalling….. nobody attacks anymore. Please people, lets fight, lets see the truth… I miss times when we saw closed guard and a blitz. Now Jiu-Jitsu is reduce to halfs, fiftys fiftys, 1/4 guards, Oh my God , this is terrible, they are ruining the ART and the Sport is boring…. Where are the Takedowns?… no no… flying half guards and siting on the butt. Where are the hands in the collar, x chokes , triangles?… no no… only holding half, 50/50s, sleeves. You that is reading, Im not against the new stuff, they are great, and I love it… but Jiu-Jitsu, the real one is about Submission, takedowns , Dominance…not points. People hold halfs, 50/50s, sleeves for 5 minutes, That is TERRIBLE!!!!!
    2 things…. or the rules change , or WE CHANGE… so lets sart with US. Lets take people down, lets go for submission, that is the evolution.
    Jiu-Jitsu must remain real, must remain with the roots, Jiu-Jitsu is life."

    granted, this must be taken with a bit of salt because xande lost on points (recap available here), but these are still the words of one of the top competitors in the world.

    -Fabio Gurgel, no competition slouch himself, put "Self Defense" as the second chapter of his 2007 book Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Basic Techniques, after a chapter on how to fall, roll, and stand up. the introduction to the chapter reads: "Perhaps the most important part of Jiu-Jitsu, the basis of everything-despite its being overlookd by many-is self-defense. Only when the student has learned to defend himself can he begin the process of becoming a complete fighter capable of going up against practitioners of any other art. Do not delude yourself into believing that learning your guard well will save you from a real fighting situation: self-defense mus be learned and trained as much as, or more than, the competitive part of Jiu-Jitsu. It will be the source of all your self-confidence and will give you the bearing of a great fighter."

    So I don't think there's any reason not to consider there to be a split between "sport" bjj and "self-defense" bjj training/mentality-wise.

    -In the June 2010 issue of Fight! magazine, Jason Chambers (host of Human Weapon) has an article in which he presents what he believes are the 6 most underrated martial arts. In his introduction to the list, he has this interesting bit to share:
    "I admit that I was guilty of prejudice. I would jouney to a country and be genuinely captivated by the culture, people, and history, but often times lacked the respect for the actual 'art.' If this worked, we'd see it in the cage. If we didn't... it didn't.
    This was my thought process until I went to Israel and met some awesome Krav Maga instructors. They opened my eyes to the simple fact that MMA, as all encompassing as we think it is, is really linear. We have techniques designed and refined for very specific combat. While highly effective in the cage and often outside, they are, like it or not, for sport.
    Don't get me wrong, if you train MMA you can handle yourself better than 99% of the population. The difference is what works inside the cage isn't necessarily what will work outside the cage."


    -it's my impression that they're going to teach "sportive" moves, possibly with a blanket disclaimer that they won't work in the street, hence the "street switch" mentioned in lesson one of the master cycle. I think it's interesting to note that they have the butterfly guard covered in lesson 28 of the first stripe, & i found these in the forum
    "Q. when doing a gogoplata i cant seem to get my leg all the way under the chin i tried it on 3 of my trainers and its always the same. doesent seem to get deep enough. i strech everyday day and do yoga to help. what could be the problim
    landmine (5/31/2010 11:56 PM)
    A. Sometimes angles are more important than flexibility. We'll address this in the Master Cycle.
    Gracie Academy 1"

    "Q. went to a sport school tonight (my training partner is on holiday)the technique section was good, i could see the difference, but i kept it in my head and got on with it, then came to rolling, now when we roll (at gjj training after the technique portion) we go about 60% and maybe the odd time just go full tilt (keeping each other safe of course) i rolled with a guy i know from years ago who has wrestled for ten years or so and i rolled with the instructor, though i didnt get eaten alive, i did get bashed a fair bit, it was shocking that they roll at 200% (face grating,cross faces ect) EVERY CLASS! you could see some people where getting a little hurt but continuing anyway. I am interested in sport competition (some where down the line) but do you have to roll like this all the time to get to that level? .im sure it'll seem a bit silly later but im a bit upset with myself now over letting my self get tapped so easy! giving up stupid arm locks and the like. any advice?
    Stephen M (7/26/2010 4:58 PM)
    A. You always have the ability to learn from experience...both the good kind and the bad kind. The more important question is what, how much, and how well are you learning. We've found that sparring without focus is not the best way to learn techniques. It's good for honing them, to be sure, but you have to crawl, then walk, before you run.
    Gracie Academy 1 "

    I forgot what comments i was going to add, but hopefully this adds to the discussion.
  4. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 2:01pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    in a hopefully meaningful bump, i would like to post a video that R&R just posted, as part of their "Gracie Breakdown" series, where they analyze bjj in mma and talk about the sportive vs. self-defense aspects. (For interested parties, they also did one on Fedor/Werdum).

    YouTube- ‪Silva vs. Sonnen UFC 117 (Gracie Breakdown)‬‎
  5. Cletus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2010 9:47am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    To the first topic of my previous post,, I would offer a few points.

    -xande ribeiro had a few words after this years mundials:
    "And now about the tournament, Unfortunately we didn’t see too much Jiu-Jitsu… the real one… BJJ rules are messing up what jiu-jitsu really is. People are fighting for the advantage, for the point and for the win…. but… what about attacking the arm, triangles, chokes, collar chokes…. now jiu-jitsu/BJJ is all about the sweeps, about holding the legs and stalling….. nobody attacks anymore. Please people, lets fight, lets see the truth… I miss times when we saw closed guard and a blitz. Now Jiu-Jitsu is reduce to halfs, fiftys fiftys, 1/4 guards, Oh my God , this is terrible, they are ruining the ART and the Sport is boring…. Where are the Takedowns?… no no… flying half guards and siting on the butt. Where are the hands in the collar, x chokes , triangles?… no no… only holding half, 50/50s, sleeves. You that is reading, Im not against the new stuff, they are great, and I love it… but Jiu-Jitsu, the real one is about Submission, takedowns , Dominance…not points. People hold halfs, 50/50s, sleeves for 5 minutes, That is TERRIBLE!!!!!
    2 things…. or the rules change , or WE CHANGE… so lets sart with US. Lets take people down, lets go for submission, that is the evolution.
    Jiu-Jitsu must remain real, must remain with the roots, Jiu-Jitsu is life."

    granted, this must be taken with a bit of salt because xande lost on points (recap available here), but these are still the words of one of the top competitors in the world.
    Note that xande never mentions "Gracie" jiu-jitsu here, he say what a lot of people in the sport have been saying for a while, that competitiors are too willing to gain a points advantage and stall. I think he is talking about competitors being more willing to attack and try to finsh the fight, rather than saying that "sport jiu-jitsu" is no good and we should only practice ju-jitsu "for the streets"
  6. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2010 1:23pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    Note that xande never mentions "Gracie" jiu-jitsu here, he say what a lot of people in the sport have been saying for a while, that competitiors are too willing to gain a points advantage and stall. I think he is talking about competitors being more willing to attack and try to finsh the fight, rather than saying that "sport jiu-jitsu" is no good and we should only practice ju-jitsu "for the streets"
    sorry, my intention was to note that he feels that competitions are getting too points/rules oriented, which is one criticism that Ryron and Rener have of competitions.
  7. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 3:38pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    that competitions are getting too points/rules oriented,
    of course what i meant by this is that there's a difference between playing BY the rules and playing TO the rules. the first case is the reason why bjj competitions started, while the second case seems to be the reason why they're stalling.
  8. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 3:47am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    but on the other hand, the undisputed champion of 'sport' BJJ emerged from the 2009 Mundials as Roger Gracie.
    Someone named Kid tweeted his belief that this is, or is becoming, more the exception than the rule. He even went as far as to say,
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Peligro
    ...although BJJ has a fun competition side to it, the most important aspect is being totally neglected at most schools. The greatest benefit for us "normal" people to learn BJJ is the increased confidence we gain from knowing we can defend ourselves in a real fight, and with Gracie Combatives that is exactly what we get.
    how much influence his visit to the Gracie Academy in Torrance had to with this is debatable, but he stated that the feeling started at least as early as the 2009 Mundials.

    Also, although he's said some disparaging comments, Renzo is a polarizing character. He admits that he has a very sharp tongue, and i believe his disdain of GU has become less potent since he tweeted a link to a gracie breakdown, quoting the line at the end that bjj needs more students... which is immediately followed by the GU url.

    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot
    "Absolutely, punches make a massive difference. However, Gracie Combatives does not feature people actively trying to punch you any way they want (does sparring with punches feature as a part of the Instructor Certification Program?) In fact, it doesn't feature any resistance at all, as the whole point is to be co-operative, so I'm not sure I would count that as being properly trained to deal with punches in a grappling situation.
    I think this is a common misunderstanding. In the first slice of the first lesson of the course, during the trap and roll lesson, Ryron says,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryron Gracie
    When he traps my arm, i pull my arm back, but only 30-40%, he's learning. So in this class, and every class, when you give resistance, the resistance is just a little bit, and as you see they're getting better, you slowly increase the resistance.
    I don't think they emphasized that last bit enough, probably out of a liability concern. Actually, they also probably emphasize starting with little resistance and building up to full resistance to get students to maintain proper technique when situations get realistic. Additionally, it's not like all the punches come in from the same angle, every time.

    The Helio/Rorion branch of the Gracies have been displeased with "sport" bjj for a while, from Helio's interview in the GJJ Advanced tapes, to Rorion creating the IGJJF competitions, to Gracie University. One thing that's probably missing from most schools is how to safely engage in a clinch when your opponent is free to strike you, and once on the ground, how to defend against punches from an untrained attacker. Also, how often is gi manipulation used as part of basic technique instruction? This kind of instruction might be reason enough to consider a school "sport focused." Beyond that, how many schools mention weapon defense training as part of their more advanced curriculum?
  9. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 6:11am

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    how much influence his visit to the Gracie Academy in Torrance had to with this is debatable, but he stated that the feeling started at least as early as the 2009 Mundials.
    Yeah, I don't think this has anything to do with Kid Peligro's visit to the Gracie Academy: he has been complaining about playing for points at the Mundials for a while now. Kid Peligro is also very close to that part of the Gracie family (see The Gracie Way), so I'm sure he's more than happy to provide them with marketing quotes.

    Also, although he's said some disparaging comments, Renzo is a polarizing character. He admits that he has a very sharp tongue, and i believe his disdain of GU has become less potent since he tweeted a link to a gracie breakdown, quoting the line at the end that bjj needs more students... which is immediately followed by the GU url.
    Heh - I don't think that indicates a change of heart from his earlier interview. If he suddenly comes out and says "actually, training without resistance, never competing and handing out belts online is fine by me," I'll pay more attention. Still, it would be interesting to know the context: do you have a link?

    I don't think they emphasized that last bit enough, probably out of a liability concern. Actually, they also probably emphasize starting with little resistance and building up to full resistance to get students to maintain proper technique when situations get realistic. Additionally, it's not like all the punches come in from the same angle, every time.
    As has been said from the start, the big problem is that they don't spar, which is where full resistance should be coming in. Otherwise, you might as well train aikido. Also as ever, I'm still hoping that is addressed later in the course, so it would be good to see a video or something of Master Cycle students sparring.

    It is repeatedly emphasised on Gracie Combatives that the drilling is co-operative. That's fine for introducing a technique, but it is essential to take the next step and up the resistance to properly learn a technique. The closest they get to sparring is the 'fight simulations' and 'freestyle' part of the belt test, which remain very, very far from full resistance: I'd compare it to a kata.

    For comparison of a co-operative approach as opposed to full resistance, here is the freestyle section of a Gracie Combatives blue belt test:

    YouTube - BBQD Freestyle

    And here are white belts sparring at a typical BJJ school, in Korea (so I'm guessing John Frankl lineage, which is SBG, the epitome of training with progressive resistance):

    YouTube - Korean Bjj Sparring

    One thing that's probably missing from most schools is how to safely engage in a clinch when your opponent is free to strike you, and once on the ground, how to defend against punches from an untrained attacker.
    In my experience, strikes aren't often mentioned, though I have trained both of the scenarios you mention at the Roger Gracie affiliate in High Wycombe, where Kev regularly teaches from the Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus (and every time he does, he tends to mention that to properly train to deal with strikes, you need to go train MMA, muay thai, boxing etc. He has himself fought in MMA and boxed while he was in the army, IIRC).

    However, I'd argue that either way, it is also missing from Gracie Combatives, because again, the techniques in Gracie Combatives are not trained with resistance. In this case, to do it properly, your training partner would be actively trying to punch you in either situation. The best place for that is probably somewhere that trains fighters to compete in MMA (and to simulate an untrained attacker, spar somebody new).

    Also, how often is gi manipulation used as part of basic technique instruction? This kind of instruction might be reason enough to consider a school "sport focused."
    Heh - interesting you should mention that, as the last email I got through from the Gracie Academy advertised their 'high tech' hoodies, with thumb holes in order to keep your sleeves available, presumably to approximate gi manipulation. The exact quote reads "it even has thumb holes in the cuffs to keep your sleeves in place if you have to defend yourself on the streets!"

    Beyond that, how many schools mention weapon defense training as part of their more advanced curriculum?
    Fortunately, not many: I definitely wouldn't go to BJJ if I wanted weapon defence. Still, it would be interesting to see what Rorion, Rener, Ryron etc show in terms of weapons defence. I hope things have improved since the infamous 'gun defence' in the old Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Self Defence book. From page 66:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  10. bjjgame is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 8:45am


     Style: brazillian jiu jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How much worse is this then having Royce tour the country and hand out belts? I was one of the Royce Blue Belts (at a seminar, I never really trained with him), and when I started regularly training under a black belt, I had my ass handed to me by his white belts. My promotion by him is much more valuable to me than my "blue" by Royce.

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