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  1. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 6:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i'm kicking myself at the moment because i knew it'd be vague to say "GJJ". i meant something more like, "holding rank from the Gracie Academy in Torrance" or "Gracie University"/"Gracie University.com"
    my underlying assumption here is that there is a difference in style, but not something drastic, like a brown belt judoka may not have the exact same skill set as a bjj brown belt, but they have many similarities. if we can put aside the presence/absence of a physical instructor, and keeping in mind the website states, "The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy belt system is distinct from that of sport-oriented schools. Although the belt colors are the same, the belt qualification requirements are very different.", would this be a more valid way of speaking about belts/rank?
  2. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 7:19pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    if we can put aside the presence/absence of a physical instructor
    Heh - I don't think we can, as that is very much the crux of the issue. :icon_wink

    and keeping in mind the website states, "The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy belt system is distinct from that of sport-oriented schools. Although the belt colors are the same, the belt qualification requirements are very different.", would this be a more valid way of speaking about belts/rank?
    I continue to feel that if they want to make a belt system which is distinct from other schools, then it would probably be a good idea to actually distinguish it beyond a disclaimer on the website. E.g., different colours to everyone else, or just do away with belt rank altogether, and grade students as something like 'Level 1 in Gracie Combatives'.

    Still, I can understand why they don't want to do that, as there is the argument that Torrance has always used that belt system (at least since coming to the US) and always focused on self defence, so why change now.
  3. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 9:15pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    Heh - I don't think we can, as that is very much the crux of the issue. :icon_wink
    true, i continue to put my foot in my mouth. i'm guessing i mentioned that more to hopefully focus the attention on the belt analogy.

    I continue to feel that if they want to make a belt system which is distinct from other schools, then it would probably be a good idea to actually distinguish it beyond a disclaimer on the website. E.g., different colours to everyone else, or just do away with belt rank altogether, and grade students as something like 'Level 1 in Gracie Combatives'.

    Still, I can understand why they don't want to do that, as there is the argument that Torrance has always used that belt system (at least since coming to the US) and always focused on self defence, so why change now.
    you continue to impress me with how balanced your replies are. i don't think it would be a bad idea, though, to change the ranking system. maybe call blue belt, one stripe "Level 1.1 in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(R)"? i don't believe they should be above at least considering changing the names/ranks, since that's precisely what they did when the IBJJF/CBJJ was created decades after Helio and company were developing bjj.
    still, if they do not, would what i proposed be a somewhat valid way of thinking about/distinguishing the belts?
  4. Sley is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 10:28pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    like a brown belt judoka may not have the exact same skill set as a bjj brown belt, but they have many similarities.
    Its more like Judo to Hapkido.

    They have similar moves, but Judo is alive and does not train for T3H ST33TZ

    also

    We don't advertise this, but many of today's best MMA fighters seek our assistance in fine tuning their skills.
    This just seems plain out meaningless, anyone, or at least most BJJ Black Belts, could claim this.
  5. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2010 2:55am

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    still, if they do not, would what i proposed be a somewhat valid way of thinking about/distinguishing the belts?
    IMO, "holding rank from the Gracie Academy in Torrance/Gracie University/Gracie University.com" is something of a mouthful, and perhaps a little vague, but it would at least indicate a bit more clearly the differentiation from the rank system in place at other BJJ schools.
  6. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2010 5:31am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sley View Post
    Its more like Judo to Hapkido.

    They have similar moves, but Judo is alive and does not train for T3H ST33TZ
    Punisher seems to be getting appreciable mileage out of the program. returns depend on investments, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sley
    This just seems plain out meaningless, anyone, or at least most BJJ Black Belts, could claim this.
    *shrugs, raising hands with palms facing upwards* it is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    IMO, "holding rank from the Gracie Academy in Torrance/Gracie University/Gracie University.com" is something of a mouthful, and perhaps a little vague, but it would at least indicate a bit more clearly the differentiation from the rank system in place at other BJJ schools.
    if Gracie University is legitimatized somehow, i think this could work. i mean, people who train exclusively no-gi aren't generally considered as legitimate as their counterparts who train both... except if they fly under the 10th planet banner, which essentially is a branched off form of bjj that is recognized as, shall i say, an art unto itself? (which, interestingly, may be analogous to the relationship of Gracie Academy/GU and bjj).
  7. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2010 6:37am

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    if Gracie University is legitimatized somehow, i think this could work. i mean, people who train exclusively no-gi aren't generally considered as legitimate as their counterparts who train both... except if they fly under the 10th planet banner, which essentially is a branched off form of bjj that is recognized as, shall i say, an art unto itself? (which, interestingly, may be analogous to the relationship of Gracie Academy/GU and bjj).
    Nogi is a whole different topic. Up until recently, from what I gather (I don't train much nogi myself), people who focused on nogi didn't really give a **** about belts. Unfortunately that seems to have changed, with the furore over the Rashad Evans 'nogi black belt'.

    10th Planet is yet another different topic (my take on it here). At present, I would say rank in 10th Planet is still an unknown quantity, due to the many questions over their affiliates in 2009. Brandon Quick had a brown belt, which was proven to be based on lies, so he ended up leaving the organisation and generally making Bravo's ranking system look fairly ridiculous. Ari Bolden's purple belt/shirt has also caused plenty of criticism.

    I'm not sure it can justifiably call itself a separate branch of BJJ. Bravo is a Machado black belt who built up a game around his flexibility: it is still BJJ, just focused on nogi, with a requirement to be able to pull your legs into all sorts of funky positions. Of course, I've never trained 10th Planet, so take that for what it's worth.
  8. Brian R. VanCise is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2010 8:30am


     Style: IRT/FMA/BJJ/BUDO TAIJUTSU

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    Nogi is a whole different topic. Up until recently, from what I gather (I don't train much nogi myself), people who focused on nogi didn't really give a **** about belts. Unfortunately that seems to have changed, with the furore over the Rashad Evans 'nogi black belt'.

    10th Planet is yet another different topic (my take on it here). At present, I would say rank in 10th Planet is still an unknown quantity, due to the many questions over their affiliates in 2009. Brandon Quick had a brown belt, which was proven to be based on lies, so he ended up leaving the organisation and generally making Bravo's ranking system look fairly ridiculous. Ari Bolden's purple belt/shirt has also caused plenty of criticism.

    I'm not sure it can justifiably call itself a separate branch of BJJ. Bravo is a Machado black belt who built up a game around his flexibility: it is still BJJ, just focused on nogi, with a requirement to be able to pull your legs into all sorts of funky positions. Of course, I've never trained 10th Planet, so take that for what it's worth.

    Do not forget that while 10th planet may be no gi on top Eddie Bravo definitely likes the pants to to manipulate and work with. So maybe it should be called half gi? :icon_chee
  9. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2010 8:06am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it will be about 5 in the morning when i finish this post, hopefully it will make sense.
    i've come to the conclusion, at least for now, that i don't care about the actual grading by video. i'm not sure if i've even made a defense of it over the course of this thread. i like the option, but i don't consider it a make it or break it detail about the program, for me, because i truly believe returns depend on investments.
    i cannot presently think of the reason i've been pining away at getting the distinction made between a GU belt, either. in any event, the most common word to come after someone states their rank is "under", so the experience of GU students would sort the belts out.
    what i do like about the program, and what i continue to defend, is being able to learn and train at home - being able to practice the gross and fine motor movements whenever it fits one's own schedule and situation, in a clearly planned, linear curriculum that builds upon itself. i also believe in vigilante training partners who, as R&R encourage, monitor each other's movements to watch for mistakes and keep a sense of reality in the training, and that being able to ask questions online can elicit effective answers to training problems.
    i think that sums up my position.
  10. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2010 8:09am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and rather than unsuccessfully try to dig myself out of another hole, i'll defer to y'all, and note that i posted a thought on the Sad Day pt. 2 thread.

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