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  1. jasiu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2009 11:49pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    gonzomalan, I know GU has a Q&A section. My comments about asking questions in class were to a guy who said that in his local BJJ place, he regularly thinks to himself "WTF?" while the instructor demonstrates. In this case he may be served well by asking the instructor for clarification.
    Crack - If you read my post again, your comment to Gonzo is not what I stated. My point is...for me, I do not like to reverse muscle memory. GU happens to be very efficient and effective for me in avoiding that.

    If I am learning a new technique incorrectly from..say..#1 student. How do I know I have just been practicing it wrong for 2 weeks if I am being told during training "this is how you do it". I assure you, I ask questions when i want to know something. I just become frustrated when I have to reprogram muscle memory.
  2. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 12:11am

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasiu View Post
    Crack - If you read my post again, your comment to Gonzo is not what I stated. My point is...for me, I do not like to reverse muscle memory. GU happens to be very efficient and effective for me in avoiding that.

    If I am learning a new technique incorrectly from..say..#1 student. How do I know I have just been practicing it wrong for 2 weeks if I am being told during training "this is how you do it". I assure you, I ask questions when i want to know something. I just become frustrated when I have to reprogram muscle memory.
    News flash: there are multiple correct ways to do the same technique.

    Furthermore, your GU muscle memory is worth very little. Muscle memory derived from sparring, now that's useful.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. jasiu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 12:23am

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post


    Just to clarify, are you claiming that because they will occasionally give you a brief typed answer on a message board, generally after a delay, that this is sufficiently interactive to be comparable to a class?


    I'm still not quite sure how you would address the central problem of a lack of resistance training in Gracie Combatives. Apologies if you've already responded to that point.
    I actually have not had to even ask a question on technique. What I have done though, is reviewed lessons many times over. I also review the questions people are asking. This may be why I have not asked a technique question yet. I still shock myself with what I am about to say...I find that after a training session, I am much more satisfied with the way training has gone than in my typical class experience. But to answer you...No, I do not feel that because they will occasionally give me a brief typed answer on a message board, generally after a delay, that this is sufficiently interactive to be comparable to a class. I feel it is superior to many classes because of the program as a whole, not just the message boards.

    I am a little unclear about your question on resistance training. The way we are practicing, which is the way suggested from GU, Is a resistance progression. Starting with none, and progressing in resistance. So I personally have for instance, cycled through lesson 2, 2 times. The second time Mr. Bad guy gave me an increased amount of resistance.


    Quick note to Diesle: I used a hypothetical scenario because I wasnt speaking about any technique. I was speaking on the use of the word "Variation". I can see you didnt think it was appropriate there. I dont mind agreeing to disagree, and am fairly certain my point came accross.
  4. jasiu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 12:32am

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    News flash: there are multiple correct ways to do the same technique.

    Furthermore, your GU muscle memory is worth very little. Muscle memory derived from sparring, now that's useful.
    Thanks for the news flash 1point2. But if you read earlier posts, you might catch what I addressing with my comments in the post you quoted.

    I agree that muscle memory can be derived from sparring, and that this is useful. Do you believe that you can not gain muscle memory from training? I have a feeling there are professional athletes who might disagree with that. Just a hunch, I dont feel the need to dig for quotes.
  5. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 2:58am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    gonzomalan, I know GU has a Q&A section. My comments about asking questions in class were to a guy who said that in his local BJJ place, he regularly thinks to himself "WTF?" while the instructor demonstrates. In this case he may be served well by asking the instructor for clarification.
    i see. what i like about the Combatives program is that R&R presume nothing on the student's part, so they try to break everything down and introduce things one at a time (linear format...).
    for example, when one of my friends first invited me to watch a UFC event at his house, i had no idea what joe rogan meant when he talked about the guard; i was literally expecting something involving the security personnel to take place. in the Combatives course, R&R don't even mention the guard by name until it serves an instructional purpose, iirc.
    i'm sure this would be of benefit to such students?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    My point is that most instructionals that cover fundamentals are geared towards being a supplement to regular in-class training.....
    All of this is mental and pedagogical scaffolding for a fundamentally weaker method of knowledge transmission, to wit, trying this **** at home....
    It's project-based learning versus a lecture format.
    i see now.
    and yes, i believe video teaching may be less effective, but it's not ineffective, especially with the kinds of support options GU offers.
    Last edited by gonzomalan; 11/30/2009 3:01am at .
  6. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 3:12am

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    Jaisu, it seems you want pure rote learning, where you are shown exactly what to do then told to do it 100 times, instead of active learning, where you are shown the big picture of what you're supposed to do and then you try it out for yourself, asking questions when you reach a part that isn't working out for you.

    Rote learning hasn't been considered an effective form of teaching since at least the 70s.
  7. jasiu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 7:30am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Jaisu, it seems you want pure rote learning, where you are shown exactly what to do then told to do it 100 times, instead of active learning, where you are shown the big picture of what you're supposed to do and then you try it out for yourself, asking questions when you reach a part that isn't working out for you.

    Rote learning hasn't been considered an effective form of teaching since at least the 70s.
    I do remember using rote learning as a method one time. The sheer amount of info in an A&P class required it for me. It was effective to pass the class with this particular instructor. It was not the 70's but I agree it was not the most effective way to learn.


    As far as GU being tied to "Rote" learning, or that method and GU for me?

    (to the people who run this forum - Can you create a smiley/emote that would convey "Put the brown rock down").
  8. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 9:06am

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasiu View Post
    I am a little unclear about your question on resistance training. The way we are practicing, which is the way suggested from GU, Is a resistance progression. Starting with none, and progressing in resistance. So I personally have for instance, cycled through lesson 2, 2 times. The second time Mr. Bad guy gave me an increased amount of resistance.
    Resistance training is when your training partner progressively resists your attempt to apply a technique, until they are resisting you fully (i.e., sparring). This is the essential component missing from Gracie Combatives.

    In Gracie Combatives, your partner is never actively trying to prevent you applying a technique. They may test your base occasionally, or sink their weight slightly in mount, but the stated purpose is to always remain a compliant drilling partner. This is a good way to introduce a technique, but it is a terrible way to test a technique.

    When you practice a technique against a partner who isn't fully resisting, your technique will pretty much always work. I can manage to execute complex sweeps and submissions in drilling, because my partner is letting me work the technique. They aren't offering resistance, as at this point, we're both still learning the mechanics of the technique.

    I often can't land those same techniques in sparring. Once your training partner is resisting fully, they immediately expose your mistakes in terms of timing, leverage, distance etc. However, the more I attempt those techniques in sparring, the more I can see those mistakes and learn from them.

    Eventually, over the course of many, many hours of sparring, this leads to a situation where I can successfully apply those technique against a fully resisting opponent. They've been 'pressure tested', giving me insights I could never get from drilling alone.


    I'd strongly recommend you read what Matt Thornton and his student Cane Prevost have written, which explains the progressive resistance model (which they call 'aliveness') very well.
  9. jasiu is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 11:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    Resistance training is when your training partner progressively resists your attempt to apply a technique, until they are resisting you fully (i.e., sparring). This is the essential component missing from Gracie Combatives.

    In Gracie Combatives, your partner is never actively trying to prevent you applying a technique. They may test your base occasionally, or sink their weight slightly in mount, but the stated purpose is to always remain a compliant drilling partner. This is a good way to introduce a technique, but it is a terrible way to test a technique.

    When you practice a technique against a partner who isn't fully resisting, your technique will pretty much always work. I can manage to execute complex sweeps and submissions in drilling, because my partner is letting me work the technique. They aren't offering resistance, as at this point, we're both still learning the mechanics of the technique.

    I often can't land those same techniques in sparring. Once your training partner is resisting fully, they immediately expose your mistakes in terms of timing, leverage, distance etc. However, the more I attempt those techniques in sparring, the more I can see those mistakes and learn from them.

    Eventually, over the course of many, many hours of sparring, this leads to a situation where I can successfully apply those technique against a fully resisting opponent. They've been 'pressure tested', giving me insights I could never get from drilling alone.


    I'd strongly recommend you read what Matt Thornton and his student Cane Prevost have written, which explains the progressive resistance model (which they call 'aliveness') very well.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me. You are great at making points clear and bringing up valid concerns. This is an intelligent arguement and I have to say, I agree with you in almost every point you make here. However, since I will not be competing in any tourney, the sparring doesnt have the same impact as it does for you. If I had to actually fight alot, would i get better? Absolutely. I do not think anyone could argue against that. The difference is the focus of training...GU GJJ and Sport BJJ, I dont think anyone could argue against those differences either. HOWEVER...I do see some hope for those who feel the resistance is lacking:

    Q. the FAQ doesnt answer my question about lack of resistance in the sample tests.Cant see how people get promoted unless they can defend against random full contact attacks ,be they strikes or grappling orientated.
    zenmachine (5/12/20096:53 PM)
    A. Since the Gracie Cobmatives course is 100% street self-defense focused, we can't test their defense against "random full contact attacks" with what they've learned unless they get in an actual fight. Since that would be unsafe, we devised the test to enable as to assess the student's understanding the key principles, as well as their ability to execute the essential techniques with a high level of accuracy, efficiency and reflexes, without causing any unnecessary injuries. Once the student moves onto the Master Cycle, we will test their skills against opponents of progressively increasing intensity levels. To qualify for a blue belt, we are mainly concerned with the students understanding of the principles and movements, we will turn up the intensity over time.
    Rener Gracie

    I have to agree with Rener here. Imagine this scenario:

    Slidey - Ok sweety, we are going to practice your takedowns. Are you ready?

    Slidey's Girlfriend - yes

    Slidey - (Slidey throws a haymaker at full force)

    Slidey's Girlfriend - (Slidey's Girlfriend fails to duck or cover on time as the extent of her jiu-jitsu training is around 6 lessons)

    Slidey - (Slidey is now single, and has even more time to write, and link great reads on these forums)
  10. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2009 11:51am

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasiu View Post
    I have to agree with Rener here. Imagine this scenario
    I see what you're getting at, but that is not a comparable scenario. If I wanted to drill takedowns against a haymaker with resistance, I wouldn't just say "ok, you stand there and try to take me down before I smack you in the face," then hit her.

    To practice the haymaker defence properly, we would start light, introducing the concept. I'd run through it slowly, so she could get used to the timing, learning the mechanics of the technique. In other words, drilling.

    Once she had that down, I'd put on some gloves. I'd then go increasingly harder and with less predictability, until she was sufficiently comfortable with the technique that we could go full force. In other words, MMA sparring, which would be the logical conclusion for training that combines takedowns with punches (san shou might be another applicable rule set).


    Jigoro Kano already came up with the solution to the problem of training with full intensity over 100 years ago. It is much the same method as described by Thornton and Prevost in my previous post. Rorion is unfortunately attempting to regress that methodology, turning the clock back to the ineffective compliant drilling which Kano sought to evolve.



    As ever, I agree that the Master Cycle is going to be very important in addressing these concerns, given that it will apparently include sparring. However, I don't agree with Rener that sparring should wait until after blue belt. At the very least, there should be positional sparring. Resistance is essential to progress in BJJ, and it is currently lacking from Gracie Combatives. If those Gracie University blue belts want to legitimise their rank, IMO this needs to change.

    Interestingly, Renzo Gracie doesn't agree with Rener either. In fact, he has some very forthright views about what Rorion is doing with jiu jitsu. This interview is fascinating: I plan to quote it at length in this thread when I've finished transcribing the whole thing.

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