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  1. Sley is offline

    mr. Hobbes

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2009 10:00pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpo sage View Post
    Whoa! I haven't read this thread in a while, but these are the types of people who are now responding? I realize this was back in July, but again, wow! It started, when I was posting, a well thought out adult conversation and it looks as in most posts it is, but then this guy. I stopped reading and decided to respond to this.

    I trained at a BJJ school and a good one at that. I was laid off. I didn't have the money to continue and still don't as of now due to the great economy. This, GU, has provided me with an opportunity to continue my training, does this make it bad then?

    My previous argument, what happens if a GU guy beats a BJJ guy from a "real" school, then what does that say about GU, let me guess the response "he got lucky?" What if the trend continues and GU practitioners begin to experience success? Then what do we say?

    Notice I have not used any profanity, I can present an argument intelligently (I had to add that, because it amazes me how neolithic we can become). Please respond to this intelligently, otherwise I will just laugh at you like the rest of us do and wonder about how much time you spend searching for pictures on the internet than actually training.

    Get a girlfriend, it will ease your frustration.
    **** the Police

    Some how I do not see how GU is better training then at a normal gym, it is how ever ten thousand times (after adding a one to the zero) better than nothing
  2. kenpo sage is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:07pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sley View Post
    **** the Police

    Some how I do not see how GU is better training then at a normal gym, it is how ever ten thousand times (after adding a one to the zero) better than nothing
    I don't think it is better or worse. There are pros and cons to each, namely the variety of people to train with at a gym, but the concise explanations of the Gracie Sons, coming from the teachings of a legendary Gracie.

    I am a teacher, and if I was to evaluate the teaching, I would rank Ryron and Renner as excellent teachers.

    Not that gym teachers are bad, as they are not, just different.
  3. slideyfoot is offline
    slideyfoot's Avatar

    Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:18pm

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpo sage View Post
    I am a teacher, and if I was to evaluate the teaching, I would rank Ryron and Renner as excellent teachers.
    As has been mentioned numerous times over the course of this thread, the quality of instruction on Gracie Combatives is not the issue. The teaching is excellent: I think we've reached a general consensus on that.

    There are two central problems:

    First, testing for a belt entirely online through video (I wrote an extensive piece on that here). This remains the biggest criticism of Gracie University.

    Second, the validity of the distinction Rener and Ryron make between 'self defence' GJJ and 'sport' BJJ (my thoughts here). Sapateiro (a brown belt under the Gracie Academy who teaches Gracie Combatives) has offered a potential solution in this thread, which is teaching the 'self defence' curriculum but also entering 'sport' competitions. That covers both bases.
  4. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    First, testing for a belt entirely online through video (I wrote an extensive piece on that here). This remains the biggest criticism of Gracie University.
    Thank you for the clarity of the "teaching" issue. Let me posit this question; isn't testing done through observation of the students rolling and their ability to execute techniques?

    At the BJJ Gym I trained at in Michigan, the instructors evaluated their students for rank through observation of their abilities in the aforementioned areas. Therefore, would this not be similar with the video?

    I agree video testing is hard to regulate and out of control to an extent, but how many instructors over the years have either self promoted or promoted others just to boost the reputation of their gym, no matter what style.
  5. slideyfoot is offline
    slideyfoot's Avatar

    Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:57pm

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     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpo sage View Post
    the instructors evaluated their students for rank through observation of their abilities in the aforementioned areas. Therefore, would this not be similar with the video?
    No. As I say in the review I linked, the central issue with video testing is that - unlike the typical school environment - an instructor is not able to review the student's progress over an extended period of time, or see them sparring with a variety of body types and skill levels. Most importantly, the instructor cannot physically test the student's ability themselves, not to mention that the Gracie University test doesn't even include sparring, merely cooperative drills.

    I agree video testing is hard to regulate and out of control to an extent, but how many instructors over the years have either self promoted or promoted others just to boost the reputation of their gym, no matter what style.
    The meritocratic system of promotion in BJJ, based on ability proved in sparring and validated in competition, is a strong check against such behaviour.
  6. Brian R. VanCise is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 9:00pm


     Style: IRT/FMA/BJJ/BUDO TAIJUTSU

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    No. As I say in the review I linked, the central issue with video testing is that - unlike the typical school environment - an instructor is not able to review the student's progress over an extended period of time, or see them sparring with a variety of body types and skill levels. Most importantly, the instructor cannot physically test the student's ability themselves, not to mention that the Gracie University test doesn't even include sparring, merely cooperative drills.



    The meritocratic system of promotion in BJJ, based on ability proved in sparring and validated in competition, is a strong check against such behaviour.

    Here in lies the true issue with online courses! There simply is no way to justifiably qualify someones skill level as you only have a snap shot in time. Nor do you have a connection to them other than of course taking their money! Whether it is Gracie University, 10th planets new online gig, the Myriad other style online train send in a video and get your belt. They all in the end fail to really evaluate the student and understand their skill sets and limitations. That and in the end they are just a way to take someones money.

    Oh and by the way the dvd's from Gracie University are really quite good! Still that does not justify ranking people online!
  7. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2009 4:29am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    not to mention that the Gracie University test doesn't even include sparring, merely cooperative drills.
    i take issue with this. does the GC curriculum include planned drills? yes. does it include cooperative learning? yes. does it include complacent training? not quite. throughout the lessons, two training philosophies have stuck out to me: 1) perfect practice makes perfect, and 2) train for self defense, not self-aggrandizement.
    the first philosophy is what i think people remember most: slow practice, emphasis on details, little resistance. this is so that the movements become familiar, and eventually natural, just like learning a technique for the first time in a dojo (because that's essentially what you're doing). what's interesting to note, and i think slidey knows what i'm talking about, is that in the Rorion/Royce tapes, Rorion recapped the techniques at full speed, something not included in the GC lessons. yes, they start out with an uninterrupted presentation of the technique for each lesson, but not necessarilly at "full speed".
    the second training philosophy is overshadowed by the emphasis on the first. in various times throughout, R&R state or hint that once moves become comfortable, they should be practiced at faster speeds and with more resistance. usually this comes with a big (and overshadowing) disclaimer that the technique should be polished before training "harder".
    i'm sure i can add to this, but i lost my train of thought.
  8. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2009 4:39am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HAP View Post
    Here in lies the true issue with online courses! There simply is no way to justifiably qualify someones skill level as you only have a snap shot in time.
    but the tests are supposed to be a snapshot of the best (or at least competent) time frame, so if your best can't pass the test, you don't pass.

    Nor do you have a connection to them other than of course taking their money! Whether it is Gracie University, 10th planets new online gig, the Myriad other style online train send in a video and get your belt. They all in the end fail to really evaluate the student and understand their skill sets and limitations. That and in the end they are just a way to take someones money.
    i doubt that money is the issue here. the dvds are $120, the test fee is $85, so if you pass on the first test, you can spend as little as about $200. that's about 2 months of group training at a bjj school around my parts.
    and as far as ability to evaluate:
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    if i understand correctly, there's about 35-40 years of teaching experience between Ryron and Rener, so if they're watching video submissions, they know when someone's half-assing the bad guy behaviour and when someone's half-assing the jiu-jitsu.
  9. slideyfoot is offline
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    Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2009 5:00am

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    i take issue with this. does the GC curriculum include planned drills? yes. does it include cooperative learning? yes. does it include complacent training? not quite.
    It does not include sparring: the 'bad guy' (to use Rener and Ryron's term) is there to act as a co-operative drilling partner, not full resistance. They repeatedly state that the idea is to help your partner, let them work the technique, rather than actively resist. The closest they get is things like testing their base on the americana etc, but always stopping short of preventing them applying the technique.

    This is not negative per se, as it is important to use this stage to introduce technique: if you were going all out all the time, you'd have a tough time learning anything. However, it is equally important to move beyond that stage, to the full resistance of sparring. Gracie Combatives does not do this, and it's a major flaw.

    In that sense, I stand by my description of the course as consisting of co-operative drills. As I keep saying, I still think it's an excellent DVD set, but it is far, far less useful than training at a school where you can regularly spar with a range of partners over an extended period of time, under the supervision of a qualified instructor.

    Whether or not Rener and Ryron suggest you should spar at some point (I don't recall that they do, but I might have forgotten: please point me to the relevant section if I missed it) is very different from actually doing it. Sparring is not a part of Gracie Combatives. The qualifier is that it probably is a part of the Master Cycle, but I haven't had a chance to look at that yet.

    but the tests are supposed to be a snapshot of the best (or at least competent) time frame, so if your best can't pass the test, you don't pass.
    It remains an inferior promotion method to observing a student's progress during sparring with a range of partner's over an extended period, coupled with the instructor testing out the student's skills in person, through rolling with them.

    i doubt that money is the issue here. the dvds are $120
    That, I agree with, at least in terms of the DVDs. Considering how much instruction you get, they are fairly priced.
  10. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2009 8:36am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So I ended up buying these DVDs to work through them. No, I will not EVER take the test to try to get a belt. I think everyone who has read any of my posts, knows that I think belts are simply stupid. But other than that, I've been watching these DVDs and working the stuff on my grappling dummy. I am doing it in my spare time, and still rolling and sparring like normal.

    What I have found it that to me this is kinda like working the heavy bag on days that I am not sparring. I have a couple of guys calling out techniquest to me, which in turn I do on the dummy. It is pretty good for what I am doing.

    Normally, I just go out there and do drills on my dummy any way. But I run through the same techniquest and then I'm done. This way allows me to go slower and look at some of the techniques through different eyes.

    For me, it is a good learning tool. Then again, so are the many books and dvds I already have. They have a pretty cool aproach for how their proccess of teaching BJJ is to new people.

    My question to someone who trains at a gracie school: Is this the normal progression for the teaching of techniques at most schools, or is their way of doing it completely unique?

    I know their way is a lot better than the way the BJJ schools, I have been to teach it, but it is the same exact way that the combatives coures I went through was done.

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